The prowheelbuilder calculator gave me 295, I ordered 294 because this other calculator gave me 293. now, I have most of the nipples tightened pretty good, but haven't trued it yet. The measurements confirm that the distance is indeed 295, not 294. so I will have 1 mm of thread sticking out the nipples. the other thing is I'm doing 2 crosses, which consumes a little more length with the weaving pattern. also, the measurement is from spoke hole on the hub to the rim, which consumes another mm because the nipple sits on a seat on the inside of the rim. So now the rim is tightened pretty good, and I have 3 mm of threads exposed on each nipple. When I really tighten and true it, I can maybe get another mm covered, but even that's pushing it.

So what's the deal? Should I send these spokes back for 296 mm? the actual measurement from hub to rim is approx 295. my spokes are 294. the nipple sitting on the seat inside the rim takes away another mm from the spoke length.

I don't get where you're taking the measurements, so I'll just give you the basics and let you decide.

The head is what holds against the rim, so you want good thread engagement there. The tubular section that goes through the rim is weaker than the spoke, so if the spoke doesn't reach the head, you have a weak spot. Here's a drawing that shoes right and wrong.



As a guideline, correct is 1mm shy of the top of the head, with a tolerance of 1mm or so either way.

If you have 3 mm thread showing between nipple and hub, you are lacking a lot of possible thread engagement.
I wouldn't ride such a wheel, and I would definitely not pass it on to someone else.

And along with FB, I don't think you're measuring right.

Your average double-wall rim is a little thicker than that, and then you want the spoke to continue past the rim by something like 1 mm to get good engangement with the nipple head/flange.

Compared to what?
3X takes a longer spoke, while 1X takes a shorter spoke.
IF this is a front (I assume, since you only mention 1 spoke length) try 1X. That will allow using a 3.5mm shorter spoke than 2X.

I don't understand how you can have 1mm of threads sticking OUT of the nipple AND 3 mm still showing????


BTW- When building a wheel, I run all the nipples by fingers to just cover the threads and still have "sloppy" spokes.

The measurements confirm that the distance is indeed 295, not 294. so I will have 1 mm of thread sticking out the nipples. the other thing is I'm doing 2 crosses, which consumes a little more length with the weaving pattern.

if you filled in the calculator for doing a 2 cross pattern then that should be the correct length

It sounds to me like you either incorrectly input your info into the spoke calculator, or you're lacing it wrong. Also, if you're building correctly: Aligned elbows of the heads-in spokes with somewhat slack spokes, tension relieving as you go etc., no shop is going to accept a return of those spokes because they are no longer new.

As stated above. A STARTING point with lots of slack left in the spokes is when the nipples are set at the last exposed thread all around the wheel. If you're at/near final tension with multiple threads showing, something is not right, and I also wouldn't ride the wheel.

It sounds like you calculated for radial or 1x and are building 2x. It might help if you posted the hub, rim specs and let someone here put it into the calculator for you and give you some hard feedback. Otherwise, the picture is unclear.

For now, there's no use continuing to work on it though, so I would stop everything until you figure out what went wrong. The wheel is going to need to be rebuilt no matter what. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but many people have made lacing/building mistakes in the process of learning how to build wheels, and it does eventually get easier if you do it often enough.

-Jeremy

if there are still 2-3mms of threads showing once the wheel is built. the spokes are way too short. i'm surprised you could even get the last two or three spokes started by hand.

here's a few pictures

https://imgur.com/RAkKBSt,8jT1CxZ,x2jdXyE

ya, that's what i expected to see.

of course the proof of the pudding is in the eating... but i would be looking at spokes about 2-3mm longer, maybe more. they should just about be coming out of the TOP of the nipple when all is said and done, IMO. at least that's the way i've been doing it on the thirty or forty sets i've built over the years for my own use.

on mine i thread the nipple on, by hand, up to the end of the threads, then start using the spoke wrench. and even then i sometimes don't really need it for a couple more turns.

like i said, i would have to think getting those last couple of spokes even started must have been tough.

of course it's possible the spokes have an inordinate amount of threading, but i've never seen such a thing. if so, it would explain just about everything and may very well work out to your satisfaction. good luck.

Yeah, that is way too short. The only exception would be if they were custom threaded and had a lot longer threaded section than standard spokes... I saw that once on a 20" wheel for an HPV

I always measure my own rims and hubs rather than going by the manufactures measurements.

I use the entire length of the nipple as part of my calculations, although I seem to get long spokes, so perhaps I need to add in a fudge factor for spoke stretching. Sometime I'll get my measurements exact.

Agreed. To be sure I'd look at the end of the nipples from the inside of the rim channel. The spoke ends should come out almost to the end of the nipple.

As I posted very early on. The spoke should come to within 1mm of the top of the nipple. Figuring the nipple's head at about 4mm or so, that leaves 3mm thread engagement in the head. I prefer to think of from this direction, and suggest taking a paper clip and using it as a depth gauge. If the clip can stick 3mm into he nipple, then she spokes are too short.

Another way to look at i is that spokes typically have 10mm of thread. Short nipples are 12mm, so if you see one thread, showing the spoke is 3mm from the top, or already 1mm short of ideal, though probably OK. If you see 2 threads showing, that means the spoke isn't reaching the head, (refer to the picture I posted earlier) and you're dependent on the nipple to hold it together.

As they say, a chain is only as strong as the weakest link, which in this case is the thin walled brass tube that the nipple consists of, and you will get failures between the end of the spoke and nipple head.

If I had ordered spokes and they came this way...I would be sending them back even if they were the right length. That's just tacky.

*edited to add*

Are those wheelsmith spokes? That abrupt taper on the butting looks familiar.

Also, can you tell us what your other wheel parts are? That will help us get you some better info so that you can get the right ones next time.

-Jeremy

I'm having eye strain issues but from the picture it appears to me that you've laced the wheel 3-cross instead of 2-cross. I think I'm seeing one crossing before the spoke leaved the hub flange and then two more crossings. If you entered a 2-cross pattern into the computer program but laced the wheel 3-cross that would explain why the spokes are short.

Good catch. Yes it is laced 3x. If the OP relaces correctly (2x) it might come out right, or a last closer.

To the OP, when counting crosses, you have to include the one right at the hub flange where adjacent spokes go back past each other. So 3x, one right at the flange, one about an inch out, and the last one which you weave.

With 2x the first cross is usually out in sight, then the laced cross.

yea they're wheelsmith spokes. rim is sun cr-18, front hub is deore xt. rear hub is alfine 8 36H disk.

Hopefully one you re-lace the wheel in 2x, you'll be in good shape. In the future though, you might consider just buiding 32h wheels in 3x anyway. Front wheels don't have to worry about drive forces, but with so many holes in the flange, more tangential spoke angle is easier for the hub flange to support. It's the same reason why radial lacing isn't recommended for 32 or 36 hole front wheels, it puts the hub flange under a very high, poorly supported force.

Please report back to use on how the rebuild goes once you have it laced 2x. It will be a good feeling to have the wheel completed, and know that you've done it right. I still remember the satisfaction my first wheel build gave me. It was and exciting process, a little stressful, and felt amazing to complete. That wheel is still going strong after many years of riding. With care in balancing spoke tension, I have no doubt you're experience will be the same.

-Jeremy

thanks, although I was suggested to stick to 2 cross lacing on the rear because of the larger diameter of the alfine internally geared hub. I can see why, because all the weaving across a shorter distance is more stressful for the spokes.

Nah, that's not it.
Too many crosses on a low flange hub leaves the shank of one spoke overlapping the head of the adjacent spoke, which makes a future spoke replacement more work w/o offering any improvement otherwise.
Once you're at tangential, past tangential doesn't make it any better.
Too many crosses on a high-flange hub and/or small rim makes the spokes (try to) sit at an angle when they meet the rim, taking a bend just outside the nipple. If bad enough -for the amount of use the wheel sees - they'll break there.

i didnt read the posts until now, but yes, I just realized that I laced 3 cross instead of 2 cross. I've corrected the lacing, and now have more than enough thread engagement. I'm actually bordering too long spokes as I'm tightening the thing. I had assumed that 2 cross meant 2 crosses OUTSIDE the diameter of the hub, not total crosses. now i know.

It's possible to save a marginal build by slipping a washer underneath each nipple.

Before you get too invested, take a spare spoke and nipple and see how much overrun room you have above the top of the nipple. That will tell you whether you want to go forward as it is, or add a washer, or start fresh with shorter spokes.

I'm cutting it pretty close. I think the wheel is properly tensioned now, but I'm at the end of the thread in my spokes. I'm going to have to change out new spokes anyway for the rear wheel, so I guess I'll take these out and exchange for 1 mm shorter spokes

Since you have a double wall rim, you can be a little long.
Typically, if you threaded the nipple ALL the way on, you would have 1-2 threads protruding past the nipple head.
As long as you have proper true & tension, you should be good. Not ideal, but........