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Explain the difference between 9 speed crank set and a 10 speed crank set?

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Explain the difference between 9 speed crank set and a 10 speed crank set?

Old 04-25-15, 02:12 PM
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Explain the difference between 9 speed crank set and a 10 speed crank set?

Hello folks,

hope everyone is enjoying their weekend.

The problem I have is that my chain rubs a lot when I'm at the highest 2 gears and at the lowest 2 or 3 gears in the rear.

here is my drive train (it's composed of parts I've replaced as the previous ones have gone bad)

left and right shifters are shimano 105 5700 series, 10s and 3s.
front derailleur is 105 FD-5703
Front crank set is 105 5500 triple speed. 52-32-28 (I could be wrong about the 28) I'll check later and update accordingly.
Rear derailleur is Ultegra 6600 10s
rear casset is CS-6600 12-23
Chain is CN-6600.

Looking at the pdf for my FD-5703 I see that the minimum teeth difference is 11. I have a teeth difference of 10. My thought is to replace one of the cogs so i can be in that minimum of 11.

I found this one on ebay that looks promising FC-5603 but it states it's for 8/9 speed set up. That got me to wondering what is the difference between a 10 speed crankset and a 9 speed crank set? Is the derailer wider to keep the chain from rubbing at the highest and lowest gear?

using a smaller inner cog will allow me to drop the derailer closer to the outer cog where it's supposed to be. Right now it's really high because if I go down any lower the middle cog scrapes the derailer.

Last edited by trunolimit; 04-25-15 at 02:15 PM.
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Old 04-25-15, 02:29 PM
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Some people say the spacers are a bit narrower and the chain rings are a bit narrower to fit the narrower chain on a 10 speed than a 9 speed and getting a 10 speed one is necessary, while others will say there's not enough difference for you to notice.
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Old 04-25-15, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by himespau
Some people say the spacers are a bit narrower and the chain rings are a bit narrower to fit the narrower chain on a 10 speed than a 9 speed and getting a 10 speed one is necessary, while others will say there's not enough difference for you to notice.
So narrower spacing up front will mean less of an angle when I'm on the smallest gear in the back and the smallest gear in the front?

I have to say I've been riding with this set up for about a week and beyond the chain rub at the extremes I've not had difficulty in shifting at all.
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Old 04-25-15, 02:50 PM
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I think you better recount the teeth on your crank! Something like a 52-39-30 would make more sense.

Look up "cross chaining" to see if that is your problem.
If you are on the smallest ring, the smallest cogs will rub.
If the largest ring, the largest cogs will rub.
That's normal.

BTW "ring" is on the crank and "cog" is on the cassette.
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Old 04-25-15, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by trunolimit
So narrower spacing up front will mean less of an angle when I'm on the smallest gear in the back and the smallest gear in the front?
Not appreciably. It makes a wider (9 speed) chain more likely to rub in the small cogs.

I had no usable overlapping gears between rings due to chain rub running the small ring and smaller cogs when I paired a FSA Carbon Pro Compact "9 and 10 speed compatible" 50-34 crankset with a 9 speed chain until I spaced it out to match my Campagnolo crank which preceded it. That completely eliminated rub even with short (40.6cm) chain stays.

Going the other way is usually fine. I ran an 8 speed crankset with a 9 speed chain for years.

In theory you can have the chain skate over the teeth when down-shifting, although I never had it happen.

Last edited by Drew Eckhardt; 04-27-15 at 02:00 PM.
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Old 04-25-15, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Kapaun
I think you better recount the teeth on your crank! Something like a 52-39-30 would make more sense.

Look up "cross chaining" to see if that is your problem.
If you are on the smallest ring, the smallest cogs will rub.
If the largest ring, the largest cogs will rub.
That's normal.

BTW "ring" is on the crank and "cog" is on the cassette.
Yeah I just checked. Its a 52-42-30.

So really my only option is to replace the whole crankset. A 39 would work nicely though. Do they sell a 39 for the FC-5504/5505 set?

My only fear about keeping this set up is the rubbing will wear out my chain faster. I already see globs of lube on the sides of my derailer. Also the Derailer will wear down faster.

I guess now that I am aware of the problem I have to just not be in those gear combos at all. It sucks because I like to cruise on the smallest cog and the smallest ring. Gives me great acceleration. What's great is the middle ring has trimming so I guess I'll just learn to cruise on the middle ring.
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Old 04-25-15, 04:05 PM
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Your L-10 is virtually IDENTICAL to M-5.
A ratio of 2.50:2.47.
+ a near perfect chain line and the ability to easily shift up or down a gear (or more) as head/tail winds change.
Much less wear & tear on everything.

Embrace it!

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Old 04-25-15, 05:12 PM
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So what I need is impossible to get at a cheap price. i need the middle chain ring from a 105 FC5603 Triple crankset, which is 39t.

Might as well camp out on ebay and hopefully a 10 speed tripple crankset comes along at a decent price.

Also would that even work? Would it make it difficult to shift from the 30 to the 39?

Last edited by trunolimit; 04-25-15 at 05:19 PM.
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Old 04-25-15, 05:26 PM
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You don't need anything but a bit of common sense!
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Old 04-25-15, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Kapaun
You don't need anything but a bit of common sense!
Is common sense prime eligible? I'll order some right now.
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Old 04-25-15, 05:41 PM
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With a triple crankset there is absolutely no reason why you should ever be "on the smallest gear in the back and the smallest gear in the front." Of course it's going to rub in that combination. There is no way to avoid it except by staying out of those gears. If you need higher gears, switch to the middle chainring.
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Old 04-25-15, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by tcarl
With a triple crankset there is absolutely no reason why you should ever be "on the smallest gear in the back and the smallest gear in the front." Of course it's going to rub in that combination. There is no way to avoid it except by staying out of those gears. If you need higher gears, switch to the middle chainring.
So technique is the answer to this problem. I lack technique. I am curious on the proper way to ride a bike. How do you know when to be on what gear? I'm sure professional racers know exactly what the most efficient way to transfer power to the road is.

Also the SHIMANO TIAGRA FC-4603 is pretty cheap. any thoughts on that?
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Old 04-25-15, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by trunolimit
. . . It sucks because I like to cruise on the smallest cog and the smallest ring. . .
It sucks more than you know. That combination wears all the components fastest of all.
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Old 04-25-15, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by trunolimit
So technique is the answer to this problem. I lack technique. I am curious on the proper way to ride a bike. How do you know when to be on what gear? I'm sure professional racers know exactly what the most efficient way to transfer power to the road is.

Also the SHIMANO TIAGRA FC-4603 is pretty cheap. any thoughts on that?
As to technique.......you just do it more and get a feel for it......if your running 30+ with the wind at your back and you make a 90 degree turn you know you will be coming off the big ring up front, and when you go to the small ring you may have to come up a few cogs in the back, same deal if you start to climb, or the reverse if you start a downhill. You will get to where you can shift both front and rear at once and end up in almost the same exact ratio, but you have added room to shift in the direction your eyes seeing the road and your feeling of the wind tells you that you will need.

shifting should never really be a "surprise" unless something nasty starts chasing you (happens)
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Old 04-25-15, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Willbird
As to technique.......you just do it more and get a feel for it......if your running 30+ with the wind at your back and you make a 90 degree turn you know you will be coming off the big ring up front, and when you go to the small ring you may have to come up a few cogs in the back, same deal if you start to climb, or the reverse if you start a downhill. You will get to where you can shift both front and rear at once and end up in almost the same exact ratio, but you have added room to shift in the direction your eyes seeing the road and your feeling of the wind tells you that you will need.

shifting should never really be a "surprise" unless something nasty starts chasing you (happens)
You know what. It has never occurred to me to shift both front and back at the same time. My mind has been blown. I wonder if there is any reading material out there. I mean Lance Armstrong has to have written a book or 2 on technique.
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Old 04-25-15, 07:45 PM
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You ask a good question about learning technique. You're on the right track there. I'm sure there are both videos and written material on how to use gears, when to shift, etc. and there are other people on this forum who know more about where to find those things on the internet than I do. Hopefully they will chime in. Other options are to see if there are any "beginner" bike rides in your area which will teach you those things or a shop or co-op where someone can teach you. How long have you had the bike and where did you get it. If from a shop recently go back to them and ask them to give you some brief instructions.

Just to help, one way to think about your chainrings is that the largest is for downhill or tailwinds, the smallest is for uphill or headwinds and the middle is for everything else. In one sense that's over simplifying it, but thinking of it that way can get you off to a good start. Another thing - your 12 -23 cassette is pretty close range. Do you live in a very flat area? If not, you may want to go to a 12-25, 13-25, 14-25 or 12-27 cassette. Those will give you more of a speed range in any of the chainrings.

You say nothing about your age, physical condition, the type of terrain where you ride. Sooner or later someone is going to ask about your pedal cadence - how fast do you pedal. Fast? or medium speed, or really grind it out slow in a high gear. You want to aim for medium to fast. If you're pedaling slowly, maybe try shifting down one gear lower that "normal" as you ride. Over time you will get used to it. There are many advantages to that, but one that could help you with your gearing is that if you pedal faster, you have more of a speed range in each gear. You won't have to shift as much.

I'm sure there is more to say, but this is all I am thinking of right now. Keep asking questions. There are many knowledgeable people here who can help. The more specific the question, the better we can answer.
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Old 04-25-15, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by trunolimit
You know what. It has never occurred to me to shift both front and back at the same time. My mind has been blown. I wonder if there is any reading material out there. I mean Lance Armstrong has to have written a book or 2 on technique.
Yea and you can go down two in back on shimano in one shift, and from what I read up two on some campy.....and that double shift might put you right where you want or need to be :-).

I'll admit I do not do it on the road much yet, but played around doing it some on resistance rollers this winter.......my sport-crafters rollers I need to get onto the big ring to hammer above 150-175 watts.....so I was working on that double shift :-). Most road stuff day to day the wind is so different I'm not proficient enough to read terrain and wind well enough to be 3 steps ahead on shifting like a better rider would be :-). Working on your spin is important too, being able to spin efficiently at 125 or more extends your range and might let you stay on one ring through some whoop de doo hills that might require shifting more if your spun out at 100.

The more you ride the more in tune with the bike you will get, but the chain sounds and feels different on the smaller cogs in the back...that plus speed showing on the electronics is what reminds me it is becoming big chain ring time :-). My Sora stuff has gear indicators but I never use them.


Bill

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Old 04-26-15, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Kapaun
BTW "ring" is on the crank and "cog" is on the cassette.
If we're going to nitpick: on the cassette you have sprockets, not cogs
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Old 04-26-15, 08:14 PM
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The new cranks go to...


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Old 04-27-15, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by mconlonx
The new cranks go to...

The picture doesn't show up.

I was paying very close attention to my shifting today and I noticed how the spacing of the chain rings will cause more chain rub than the chain rings spaced for a 10 speed. It's so obvious now.

I went ahead and ordered the FC-4603 set. it came with a BB-4600 so I couldn't splurge of the 6600. All for 80 bucks brand new. Now it's time to watch some videos on replacing a crank set.
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Old 04-27-15, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by trunolimit
So technique is the answer to this problem. I lack technique. I am curious on the proper way to ride a bike. How do you know when to be on what gear? I'm sure professional racers know exactly what the most efficient way to transfer power to the road is.

Also the SHIMANO TIAGRA FC-4603 is pretty cheap. any thoughts on that?
Shift the rear derailleur to maintain a cadence which is comfortable, minimizes fatigue, and lets you recruit enough muscle fibers. This increases with power output, and decreases with low inertial load as when climbing or on a stationary trainer. With some practice pedaling fast at low load to teach yourself muscle coordination 80-90 RPM is a reasonable starting point. Pedal faster when working harder - 100-110 often works well for 5 minute intervals, and shifting at 120-130 RPM is necessary to develop maximum power sprinting. Pedal slower at an all-day pace for endurance.

Eschew the "cross-chained" combinations pairing big ring with the largest cog and small ring with the smallest cog. They're noisier and can cause unintended shifts from a worn ring to a smaller ring which can dump you on the ground. The middle ring on triple cranks produces less chain angle to the smallest and largest cogs and is more amenable to their use.

When you run out of cogs shift the front derailleur to the next harder/easier ring and rear derailleur to arrive at the next gear. For example, with 50-34 x 13-14-15-16-17-18-19-21-23 when riding 50x21 up a slight hill and bogging down my next gear was 34 x 15 (21/50 * 34 = 14.3, and 15 is the next easier) and I'd pair the ring change with five cogs smaller. After cresting the hill, pedaling faster, and finding 34 x 14 insufficient I'd go to 50x19.

With modern integrated brake/shift levers you can easily shift both ends at once. Shifting to the small ring and a smaller cog creates a small risk dumping the chain to the inside if you hit a bump while the chain is slack, although a chain catcher will bounce it back on the small ring. Keeping slight tension on the chain also makes it less likely to come off changing to a smaller cog and ring at the same time.

With front shifts being slower than rear shifts and often involving a several-cog compensating move it's desirable to avoid them or make them under more favorable circumstances like when you're headed towards a hill not yet climbing it. To this end bicycles are usually setup with substantial overlap which provides latitude in ring selection. For instance, right now I usually ride 50-39-30 x 13-14-15-16-17-18-19-21-23-26, with 39x14 to 39x18 covering the same range as 50x18 to 50x23. Given a choice choose the ring which minimizes shifting and chain noise. On flattish ground with some variation where I'd generally ride 15-20 MPH I use my 39 ring which is pleasant cruising down to about 11 MPH and up to 22 MPH when not using the largest and smallest cogs. Needing just a brief burst of speed I can hit 30 MPH in 39x14 and don't bother shifting to my big ring.

Consider all that when choosing gearing - you need a low enough gear to get you up hills with acceptable cadence, close enough spacing between gears to keep your legs moving at a pleasant speed, and don't want too many slow shifts between rings. Learning to pedal faster when you really need to and running a larger (13, like the 52x13 big gear Eddie Merckx used to dominate the spring classics) starting cog so you can have more sprockets in the middle or easy end is a good compromise.
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Old 04-27-15, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by trunolimit
Yeah I just checked. Its a 52-42-30.

So really my only option is to replace the whole crankset. A 39 would work nicely though. Do they sell a 39 for the FC-5504/5505 set?
See how your current derailleur works. Manufacturers are conservative on their recomendations.


I guess now that I am aware of the problem I have to just not be in those gear combos at all. It sucks because I like to cruise on the smallest cog and the smallest ring. Gives me great acceleration.
You don't want to do that (at best you'll be making a slow shift up to the next ring after you get some speed on flatter terrain, and it's noisy), and will accelerate fine in a larger gear like 42x23.
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Old 04-27-15, 02:07 PM
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Nigel Tufnel: The numbers all go to eleven. Look, right across the board, eleven, eleven, eleven and...
Marty DiBergi: Oh, I see. And most amps go up to ten?
Nigel Tufnel: Exactly.
Marty DiBergi: Does that mean it's louder? Is it any louder?
Nigel Tufnel: Well, it's one louder, isn't it? It's not ten. You see, most blokes, you know, will be playing at ten. You're on ten here, all the way up, all the way up, all the way up, you're on ten on your guitar. Where can you go from there? Where?
Marty DiBergi: I don't know.
Nigel Tufnel: Nowhere. Exactly. What we do is, if we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do?
Marty DiBergi: Put it up to eleven.
Nigel Tufnel: Eleven. Exactly. One louder.
Marty DiBergi: Why don't you just make ten louder and make ten be the top number and make that a little louder?
Nigel Tufnel: [pause] These go to eleven.


Christopher Guest, as Nigel and Rob Reiner, as Marty
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Old 04-27-15, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by trunolimit
You know what. It has never occurred to me to shift both front and back at the same time. My mind has been blown. I wonder if there is any reading material out there. I mean Lance Armstrong has to have written a book or 2 on technique.
Lots of info on the web; here's one:

How to Shift | Bicycling

Note #5 ...
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Old 04-27-15, 03:36 PM
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To break it down when riding a triple chain ring use the large chain ring for the lower half of the rear cassette, use the smallest front chain ring for the upper half of the rear cassette (plus or minus one gear of course), and use the middle chain ring for the middle gears on the rear cassette.

so on a 9 speed cassette you can use the small chain ring with the top 4-6 gears on the rear cassette, the middle chain ring for the middle 4-7 gears on the cassette, and the large chain ring for the bottom five gears on the cassette.

This keeps you from being cross chain which will wear chain rings, cassettes, derailleurs, et al much faster than when you ride in a non-cross chain gear selection.

At least this is my understanding as I only have a triple on my mountain bike and my 30 year old road bike and my newer road bikes are both doubles on the crank.
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