Chains: How clean is clean?
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#27
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"Well - that's not the whole story then since gasoline doesn't burn or scar. C'mon - it's OK to use gas. Just get over it everybody. I've done it for years. Just use gloves and a well vented area to be safe."
#28
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You are correct that the soap and water won't "harm" the chain during the washing process. But the problem is the removal of the water after the washing process. Most people wouldn't let the chain just sit around and dry in the open air because it would promote oxidation of the metal...aka "rust". But drying it in an oven isn't any better because while the water evaporates faster, the rate of the oxidation reaction is faster as well.
There's a rule of thumb in chemistry that says a 10°C increase in temperature doubles the reaction rate. Placing a wet 70°F (20°C) wet chain in a 250°F (121°C) oven to boil off the water, increases the temperature 80°C (water boils at 100°C) which means the oxidation reaction rate has increased roughly 16 times what it is at room temperature. You may be drying it faster but you are also rusting it much faster.
Rinsing the chain is acetone or denatured alcohol is a wiser course of action. Both remove the water, evaporate quickly and don't promote rusting.
Using a water based chain cleaner in an effort to be more "environmental" really isn't. Depending on how much you feel you need to rinse the chain, you are generating a huge amount of waste. Waste that shouldn't be poured down a drain because it contains oil. Just because you surrounded the oil with detergent doesn't mean the oil "went away".
Using mineral spirits is looked upon as not being "environmental" but it's more so than the water methods. A cup of mineral spirits is good for a dozen or so chain cleanings. It doesn't need to be rinsed off. It will evaporate on its own. Yes, that's a different kind of pollution but one of much smaller scale. It also removes the oil with a lot less time and effort.
There's a rule of thumb in chemistry that says a 10°C increase in temperature doubles the reaction rate. Placing a wet 70°F (20°C) wet chain in a 250°F (121°C) oven to boil off the water, increases the temperature 80°C (water boils at 100°C) which means the oxidation reaction rate has increased roughly 16 times what it is at room temperature. You may be drying it faster but you are also rusting it much faster.
Rinsing the chain is acetone or denatured alcohol is a wiser course of action. Both remove the water, evaporate quickly and don't promote rusting.
Using a water based chain cleaner in an effort to be more "environmental" really isn't. Depending on how much you feel you need to rinse the chain, you are generating a huge amount of waste. Waste that shouldn't be poured down a drain because it contains oil. Just because you surrounded the oil with detergent doesn't mean the oil "went away".
Using mineral spirits is looked upon as not being "environmental" but it's more so than the water methods. A cup of mineral spirits is good for a dozen or so chain cleanings. It doesn't need to be rinsed off. It will evaporate on its own. Yes, that's a different kind of pollution but one of much smaller scale. It also removes the oil with a lot less time and effort.
You can also reuse mineral spirits. I leave them in a jar, let them sit, then pour into a new jar, leaving the dirt sit on the bottom.
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I like mineral spirits too (not the milky white stuff marketed as green). I filter it through a cone coffee filter into a jar and get lots of uses out of it. Diesel fuel works well too and is cheap and reusable in the same way and not as volatile as gasoline.
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A visibly clean chain can still be dirty. If the interior links and pins have grit in them, lubing the chain can accelerate wear by keeping the grit inside and letting it act as a file to your chain.
Either do a thorough cleaning on your chain, or do nothing. Either way, you can expect about 3,000 miles from a chain. I know, some do more, other get less and I think that depends on the riding conditions more than owner maintenance.
Either do a thorough cleaning on your chain, or do nothing. Either way, you can expect about 3,000 miles from a chain. I know, some do more, other get less and I think that depends on the riding conditions more than owner maintenance.
#31
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I typically lube, wipe and then relube my chain.
I don't ever bother cleaning it either with soaking or with one of those spinny brush things (I own one).
Last chain I replaced had 4500 miles on it, and I replaced it before it got too stretched (as measured by steel rule and chain checker). Current chain is nearing 4000 miles and doesn't need replacing yet.
At the end of the day, a replacement chain typically costs $20-30, unless you're buying top end. Replacing a chain is a simple job.
I don't ever bother cleaning it either with soaking or with one of those spinny brush things (I own one).
Last chain I replaced had 4500 miles on it, and I replaced it before it got too stretched (as measured by steel rule and chain checker). Current chain is nearing 4000 miles and doesn't need replacing yet.
At the end of the day, a replacement chain typically costs $20-30, unless you're buying top end. Replacing a chain is a simple job.
#32
Senior Member
Use a Gatorade bottle, or any with an opening larger than a soda bottle, to make it easier to get the chain in and out. Fill half way with OMS, shake. Remove chain, let dry, or blow with compressed air. Reinstall, lube, ride. If you it take more than 30 minutes your doing to much extra stuff.
#33
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Zep citrus degreaser, brass wire brush, shop rag, old newspapers on the floor.
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So, I have a bike and my bike has a chain and my chain has dirt. A lot of dirt. I've been cleaning it today. A lot of dirt, it appears. I wanted to give it a very thorough cleaning in preparation for using Squirt. My process has been to scrub it first with a plastic fingernail brush to get off the worst, and then to give a lot of agitated cycles in very hot water and dishsoap. Once that comes out non-cloudy I dry it and give it a very long soak in mineral spirits. So, should be easy, right? For some reason, the repeated cycles with hot water and dishsoap are not coming out clean after about 10 cycles, but the color of the water clouding has changed. Is it possible that I'm seeing corrosion and not dirt? Could this damage the chain? It has definintely cleared up but is still a bit cloudy. So, how clean can I really expect in a mountain bike chain used in very dusty riding? Clear as, well, water? Sorta clearish? Thanks in advance.
Edit: If it matters, this is a SRAM PC-971.
Edit: If it matters, this is a SRAM PC-971.
Also you should not need "a long soak" in mineral spirits. Just 15-30 seconds should be enough to get ALL the grease off, at room temperature.
???
When I degrease parts I tend to use acetone or toluene, but I have those two solvents around for other reasons. Others that work are gasoline, kerosene, xylene, isopropyl alcohol and Everclear (the booze).
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Gasoline, xylene and toluene will work well but they aren't safe materials to use. They all have significant long term and less significant short term toxicity.
They all have significant flammability risks associated with using them with gasoline being the most hazardous in that respect. Gasoline has an extremely low flash point...-40°F...and is highly flammable at every temperature you might use it at. Xylene and toluene have significantly higher flash points, 43°F and 90°F respectively, but they are more toxic than odorless mineral spirits.
Kerosene is a very good solvent for oil and grease. It's not toxic. The problem is that it isn't volatile enough. While all of the other solvents you've mentioned evaporate quickly, kerosene takes a long time to evaporate if it does so at all. It's just too much like an oil to begin with.
Overall, mineral spirits does everything you need it to do when it comes to cleaning a chain. It doesn't take much, it's not too flammable, it evaporates quickly and cleanly and you can reuse it for a very long time.
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I've ridden over 70,000 miles the last several years mainly on dirt and gravel. What I've learned about chain cleaning is that it should be like a good saddle. You shouldn't have to think about it much. Use lube sparingly and the chain will pretty much clean itself- at least well enough to function properly.
Riding on roads with a lot of abrasive dirt/sand kicks that material onto your chain. You can either stress over it or just ride your bike and realize you're going to have to replace the chain and cassette every 1200 miles or so.
Riding on roads with a lot of abrasive dirt/sand kicks that material onto your chain. You can either stress over it or just ride your bike and realize you're going to have to replace the chain and cassette every 1200 miles or so.
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Gasoline works pretty well too, is pretty cheap and is easy to obtain everywhere.
It is a carcinogen, but that effect is only from long-term exposure.
If you only clean your chain 3-4 times a year, outside, and using only a small bit of gasoline, the amount of fume exposure is pretty insignificant. (Some of us pump gas into our cars every week!... )
Toluene works really well but is rather nasty to handle. Xylene is slightly-less-toxic than toluene.
Either will work really well, it comes down to the prices of each. Paint stores for tradesmen have these or can order them, but they're really kind of overkill for this. Toluene will remove any kind of grease or oil, plus a lot of paints and ink, and it will dissolve a lot of plastics/rubber/urethane too.
The only solvent stronger than toluene is probably benzene, but (in the 1st world) that's not available to ordinary mortals anymore.
#40
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That Sheldon Brown method is the only thing a real cyclist would ever use.
#41
Senior Member
I use SIMPLE GREEN as a cleaning solution with the parktool chain cleaning gadget.
If I'm removing the chain (KMC missing link), I use SG with a dab of dishwasher soap on a pan. Let it stay for a few mins then scrub. Wash with water and dry with an air compressor.
If I'm removing the chain (KMC missing link), I use SG with a dab of dishwasher soap on a pan. Let it stay for a few mins then scrub. Wash with water and dry with an air compressor.
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The way that bicycle chains are constructed is that they use hardened carbon-steel pins pressed into side plates that may or may not be hardened, stainless, or plated. The hardened pins are very susceptible to rusting. The main danger is water causing corrosion on the pins and allowing them to become loose inside the plate, where they begin to work out.
Outside of bicycle use, the main reason to oil a roller chain is to keep it from rusting--not because it needs any actual lubricant. There's been numerous tests of bicycle chain lubes through the years and most of them show that there is very little difference at all in terms of mechanical lubrication performance--because there's almost no friction present to eliminate in the first place.
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I just spray it with a hose real close in as I turn the pedals slowly. Works really well and mechanical removal of contaminants seems like a better deal all around that the chemical means being debated above. Ride a few miles til it's dry and then lube.
Gasoline?
Gasoline?
#44
Senior Member
^^ I dry it with an air compressor after the water rinse. Then I lube.
On occasions, I wash my bike too like below:
Can't complain since I have not have any issues with rusting on my chain. But I see your point there.
On occasions, I wash my bike too like below:
Can't complain since I have not have any issues with rusting on my chain. But I see your point there.
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I knew a woman who badly burned her face and neck when she walked across a carpet carrying her boyfriend's motorcycle gas tank. A static charge ignited the fuel vapors. She had to get multiple skin grafts and her face was permanently disfigured, horribly so. She became a doctor herself.
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Gasoline works pretty well too, is pretty cheap and is easy to obtain everywhere.
It is a carcinogen, but that effect is only from long-term exposure.
If you only clean your chain 3-4 times a year, outside, and using only a small bit of gasoline, the amount of fume exposure is pretty insignificant. (Some of us pump gas into our cars every week!... )
It is a carcinogen, but that effect is only from long-term exposure.
If you only clean your chain 3-4 times a year, outside, and using only a small bit of gasoline, the amount of fume exposure is pretty insignificant. (Some of us pump gas into our cars every week!... )
Yes, I know that we pump gasoline into our cars every week...and because of it we have a laissez-faire attitude towards it. It's a material you shouldn't be using for anything other than placing it in a sealed tank and handling it in very controlled conditions.
Toluene works really well but is rather nasty to handle. Xylene is slightly-less-toxic than toluene.
Either will work really well, it comes down to the prices of each. Paint stores for tradesmen have these or can order them, but they're really kind of overkill for this. Toluene will remove any kind of grease or oil, plus a lot of paints and ink, and it will dissolve a lot of plastics/rubber/urethane too.
Either will work really well, it comes down to the prices of each. Paint stores for tradesmen have these or can order them, but they're really kind of overkill for this. Toluene will remove any kind of grease or oil, plus a lot of paints and ink, and it will dissolve a lot of plastics/rubber/urethane too.
But for cleaning of chains or parts, none of the BTX compounds are needed. Mineral spirits works just as well without the toxicity or flammability.
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#47
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Also: gasoline works pretty well as a parts cleaner.
Ever been to a gas station?
Ever seen the big oil spots where everybody parks their cars while they're pumping gas?
Ever seen the clean spots where people spilled gasoline on the ground?
How did you think those spots got clean?
You can use whatever you want, but keep in mind that no "real" machine parts cleaner has water in it.
The same gunk you struggle to scrub off with soap and water will basically disappear in any halfway-reasonable cleaning solution.
It's not about the toxicity but the efficacy. Mineral spirits works on petroleum based grease and oil because it is closely related to those compounds. It's also non-polar while acetone is much more polar...think salad dressing. Acetone will barely do the job while mineral spirits does the same job better. ...
Also we note: the main ingredients in most carburetor cleaners and parts cleaning solutions is toluene, xylene, methyl chloride and/or acetone.
Of those four, acetone is the least-toxic and usually the easiest to obtain. Any store that sells indoor and outdoor paints usually has it on the shelves, in quart cans.
Can you link to any commercially-made parts cleaner that DOESN'T use any of these things, and uses mineral spirits instead?
Toluene: I've seen that toluene seems to be rather more reactive than acetone or gasoline, but I didn't do actual testing. That's just from seeing how fast it can get crud off, and how many plastic and rubber parts it's eaten... And it was just a mention, not a recommendation anyway.
All this stuff has long-term exposure risks, but how often do you clean your chain?
Every day?
Or only 4-6 times a year?
"Brief periods of exposure a few times a year" isn't long-term exposure by any standards. Many, many people are exposed to gasoline fumes weekly if not more often.
#48
Non omnino gravis
Once again, the key here is to stop wasting your time and choice of chemical on cleaning chains. Wipe it down with a rag every few days. Lube as required. Throw it away when stretched. I completely stopped cleaning them like 3 chains ago. Absolutely no difference in longevity or performance. The only thing I still do is clean the cassette cogs and chainrings before putting on the fresh chain. And I do that in the sink with a 99¢ scrub brush and some Dawn.
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Come now, it's not an instantaneous reaction. My chains never have a chance to rust since I spray, ride to dry and then lube all within 20 minutes. Every now and again when I discard a chain I will push a few pins out and inspect the pins and plates under my 90x Aliexpress microscope. Have yet to see anything that would indicate water/air oxidization.
I don't struggle to clean my chain. The water pressure from a regular garden hose mechanically removes the dirt and old lubricant build up just fine.
It remains that gasoline is a poor choice for parts cleaners. No "real" machine parts cleaner has gasoline in it.
I don't struggle to clean my chain. The water pressure from a regular garden hose mechanically removes the dirt and old lubricant build up just fine.
It remains that gasoline is a poor choice for parts cleaners. No "real" machine parts cleaner has gasoline in it.
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Yea but water = rust, if you were being picky. Did you get that part?
Also: gasoline works pretty well as a parts cleaner.
Ever been to a gas station?
Ever seen the big oil spots where everybody parks their cars while they're pumping gas?
Ever seen the clean spots where people spilled gasoline on the ground?
How did you think those spots got clean?
Also: gasoline works pretty well as a parts cleaner.
Ever been to a gas station?
Ever seen the big oil spots where everybody parks their cars while they're pumping gas?
Ever seen the clean spots where people spilled gasoline on the ground?
How did you think those spots got clean?
Not as I've seen it.
Also we note: the main ingredients in most carburetor cleaners and parts cleaning solutions is toluene, xylene, methyl chloride and/or acetone.
Of those four, acetone is the least-toxic and usually the easiest to obtain. Any store that sells indoor and outdoor paints usually has it on the shelves, in quart cans.
Can you link to any commercially-made parts cleaner that DOESN'T use any of these things, and uses mineral spirits instead?
Also we note: the main ingredients in most carburetor cleaners and parts cleaning solutions is toluene, xylene, methyl chloride and/or acetone.
Of those four, acetone is the least-toxic and usually the easiest to obtain. Any store that sells indoor and outdoor paints usually has it on the shelves, in quart cans.
Can you link to any commercially-made parts cleaner that DOESN'T use any of these things, and uses mineral spirits instead?
Commercial parts cleaners that use organic solvents don't contain acetone nor methylene chloride. Nor do they contain significant amounts of toluene nor xylenes. Those materials are called "aromatics" for a reason and you could certainly smell them if they were present in large quantities. The solvents used in the commercial parts cleaners are low odor, low vapor pressure, high flash point mineral spirits mixtures.
Toluene: I've seen that toluene seems to be rather more reactive than acetone or gasoline, but I didn't do actual testing. That's just from seeing how fast it can get crud off, and how many plastic and rubber parts it's eaten... And it was just a mention, not a recommendation anyway.
The point, however, isn't the effect that toluene or acetone have on parts but the effect that they have on grease and oil. Polar compounds like acetone and alcohols just aren't that good a solvent for grease and oil. Mineral spirits is far more efficient and less difficult to handle.
All this stuff has long-term exposure risks, but how often do you clean your chain?
Every day?
Or only 4-6 times a year?
"Brief periods of exposure a few times a year" isn't long-term exposure by any standards. Many, many people are exposed to gasoline fumes weekly if not more often.
Every day?
Or only 4-6 times a year?
"Brief periods of exposure a few times a year" isn't long-term exposure by any standards. Many, many people are exposed to gasoline fumes weekly if not more often.
On the other hand, if the gas station is operating properly, the customer shouldn't be exposed to gas fumes at all. Modern cars and gas stations are supposed to reduce the release of gasoline fumes to extremely low levels to avoid releasing ozone causing hydrocarbons.
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Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!