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Shifters with dual cable connection

Old 08-24-17, 08:28 PM
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Shifters with dual cable connection

I am building a quad handcycle - I will use the back triangle from 2 low end mountain bikes. So I will have a dual drive one for each hand.

I have seen and known about cable splitters. I also know that many styles of cable doublers. In fact I will be using brake levers with dual cable connections. So I can run the front brakes to one lever, and rear brakes to the other lever. So the brake system is handled.

I would like to run the rear derailleurs 2 to one shifter and the front 2 derailleurs to the other shifter so that shifting gears are in sync.

I can not seem to locate a product that allows this to happen. I realize most quad bikes do not employ 2 drive trains like this. They tend to use one wheel, and or a differential to split the power to the rear.

Has anyone seen or know of anything that can help?

Thanks,
Jon
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Old 08-24-17, 09:17 PM
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Given the over shift and trim back that der shift levers have (or back in the day the technique we all did even we didn't know what it was called yet) I would not expect two ders to shift well at the same time if controlled by a single lever. Sure you could likely get some shifts to happen as intended but I suspect that synchronization would fall off soon enough. With modern cogs the shifting gate is purposely located, as each rear wheel takes different distances along the earth the two cog sets will become out of sync. While not the end of the world this would mean that one wheel would likely shift a part of a wheel rotation before the other wheel's gearing would shift. I think expecting the shifts to occur at about the same time to be wishful. Have you given any consideration to the differing strengths of one side of a body compared to the other side. By locking the driving, side to side, so that the two sides of the body rotate at the same rate or so that the weak side can be "supported" by the strong side means that there will be no steering forces due to one rear wheel having more power then the other wheel gets.


But to best answer the question I suspect an electric shifting system would limit the mechanical issues resulting in shift point timing discrepancies. Andy
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Old 08-25-17, 01:13 AM
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use a canti/center pull brake cable hanger and yoke... there are positive locating yokes that use set screws to firmly locate the yoke in a set position... the Cyclocross i i maintain uses two of these yokes...

Tektro RBP-1246A RBP Bike Cycling Brake Yoke - Black

TEKTRO FRONT SILVER BICYCLE BRAKE CABLE HANGER (249)

there are other configurations available of the cable hangers... and cable STOPS that clamp onto frame tubes, too....

run a single cable to the hanger and yoke, cut another shift cable in half, thread through the yoke, run the ends to the derailleurs... adjust as needed! One lever, two derailleurs operated!

best to use two identical derailleurs...... and i'd think a friction shifter would be best to use... less tuning issues that way... index(click) shifters would be possible, but will demand far more set-up patience....... also, i'd recommend using all new stranded/lined shift cable housing, of all the same manufacture....

good luck with your project! report back with pics of the final machine, ok?

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Old 08-25-17, 10:52 PM
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Thank you for the replies.
I created a rough draft if the design in my 3D program.

Images to show the placement of things.

The possibility of using thumb friction shifters or other friction shifters manually might work.

And, thanks for the sync info. I totally didn't think of rotation speed on each rear tire.

And, those parts now on my to order list once I can.

The center frame is from a weight bench I have, and is 16 guage steel 2x2 diameter. Should serve well as the frame.

Width will be about 30 inches wide. Just a few inches wider than my manual wheelchair.


I may add outer side rails for strength I'd needed.
They would be garage door steel rails.

The forked out front, I think this will turn still based on the shape if the tires being U shaped when tilted should track along the smaller inner diameter of the front wheels.

Open to design changes also if mine aren't the best.

And, thanks again for the help.
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Old 08-25-17, 10:58 PM
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I will be happy to keep you updated here. It is amazing to learn so much, and I hope share as much.

This site is pretty amazing.
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Old 08-26-17, 12:13 AM
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you'll want to steepen them forks up a lot... they will not steer well, and the suspension will not soften your ride, only compress when presented with a front load!

typical MTB front steering angle is 67-69 degrees, btw...

and exactly how are you gonna steer that beast?

i'll assume you've lost use of your legs... ever considered a front drive trike? use a fat tire fork, and attach the gears to the front? i've seen lots of recumbents set up that way... they sync the crank arms, then they can steer, too! the rear wheels can then be cambered out at the bottom for increased stability, too!

only one der. and cassette needed then, too... use front wheels on the back.... disc brakes on both "back" wheels, link them like i described for the twin ders. we discussed...

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Old 08-26-17, 07:51 AM
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I started with the idea to buy a trike style like you mention. Only they come in road low to the ground, a more upright higher seating position as seen in the image with the yellow frame, and the granny or grandpa styles.

Trikes like to tip in higher speed turns.
Tadpoles handle turns at speed a little better.

The forks will function like the low recumbent in the images as I have them now.

They do turn with the forks like that, just wider than typical. And, later I may replace the front wheels with BMX wheels or smaller to improve turning.

I think when I fit the actual frame to my needs the front forks will be more like the yellow monotype handcycle. That will allow much tighter turns.

As for the design difference from the handcycles now sold. The hand cranks alone can cost over $1,000.

Whole my totsl build will cost $400 to $500.

Brakes will be V brakes 2 front 2 rear. I will upgrade to disc all four wheels at some point.

As for both hands in more of the rowing position or side by side I only need to freewheel one back until aligned with the other. But, you get a more even power output with the position alternating.

The forks will be treated as a single piece. At the positions of either of the images the suspension is not really used or needed. So I will be taking the forks apart to remove the suspension and weld the two pieces into one.

As for vibration I use an air filled cushion that works perfectly for my manual wheelchair. And, like it the air filled tires do alot of absorbing also.

Down the road I may redesign the seat to have shock absorbers to keep the framing simpler.

Diffenately great tips and information that you shared with me, and 99.9% bring the forks to a more upright as in the image with the yellow bike shows.
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Old 08-26-17, 09:29 AM
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Impressive. Am I missing something? With a hand cycle don't you need to drive/steer/brake from the same touch points with your hands? Is this design lean steer? I'm not seeing that either.
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Old 08-26-17, 01:29 PM
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Actually for many off road handcycles they controls are separate. https://officinecubo.com/wp-content/u...07/MG_2231.jpg In this image we see the hand crank being used by one hand and the steering with the other. For me this type of separation is fine.

Most road handcycles are everything is combined. But both work fine.

Great question.

Lean steering to an extent, it won't lean the entire bike as of now. Things could change as it is built.

The only thing I do not know is how exactly this will feel to me. I may opt to bring the seat up and go for a more car like seating or trike style, and that would let m bring the forks down to allow for more traditional turning. That will depend on the crank placement, if it works as shown then I can bring the front closer to me, and steepen the down angle of the forks.

Sorry about the not being sure where things will end up yet.
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Old 08-26-17, 01:49 PM
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In the QBP catalog are 'problem solver' cable splitters, where 1 cable can pull 2, so with those a single cable can work 2 separate things.
meaning the shifter will still have just one cable..

coordinating them will require in line cable adjusters in each down stream cable housing..

your CGI is ok, in fantasy, but in the real world the suspension forks wont work at that low angle

and the trail will be immense, like a stretched out chopper,

consider a 20" wheel and a short suspension fork in a more standard 70 degree angle. re design of linkage needed,

because the arc of a wheel towards the inside of the corner is different than the radius described by the outside wheel in a turn..

Car's engineers sorted this out a long time ago.


a joy stick , hand crank with the brakes and shifters on the grips let your hands stay in one place ,
steering is a function of leaning the joy stick shaft to the right or left.




...

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Old 08-26-17, 02:31 PM
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I am not using the forks for the suspension. The bikes I am sourcing them from are Walmart level so they wouldn't work even with the forks normally placed.

I am thinking of a different placement for the forks, weld then to the ends of the front T of the frame this would put the forks in the traditional positions. Then the steering might be able to be mounted to the center frame closer to me, and turn much better.

You guys are awesome for the insight and tips.

My goal is to make this for as little money as possible. I am trying to build an affordable casual use handcycle.

I will reposition the forks to the new position and post the images of that.

Loving the insight here, and thanks again for the time you took and are taking to reply.

This image shows kinda of what I am thinking about https://www.unico-jp.com/blog/wp-cont...ilimanjaro.jpg

My forks will be 17 or 18 inches apart.

The image here shows one way to connect the two. I could weld long enough connection brackets that I could use that as my steering handle. https://www.innoros.ru/sites/default...air_rungu2.jpg

You got me thinking. Thanks
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Old 08-26-17, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by AbiliTTV View Post
Sorry about the not being sure where things will end up yet.
An idea like this takes a lot of "Devil's Advocate" thrown at it. The framebuilders forum might give some interesting advice. They don't have near as much traffic and dual posts can be less productive and loose momentum. Maybe invite them with a link to this thread.


Originally Posted by AbiliTTV View Post

The image here shows one way to connect the two. I could weld long enough connection brackets that I could use that as my steering handle. https://www.innoros.ru/sites/default...air_rungu2.jpg

You got me thinking. Thanks
I think this idea would work and feel a lot better than your original cad. That rigid bar across both looked hard to use.

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Old 08-26-17, 05:34 PM
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Great idea. I really did not expect to end up on frame details like this. But, am I glad you peugeot and everyone else has been so kind and sharing such good information.

I will link the frame builders to this as you mention. Again, great idea.
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Old 08-26-17, 06:05 PM
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This is pretty cool: Two Brakes, One Hand: How To Stop a Polo Bike





I noticed that Juggernaut pix had a really slick looking manufactured one on the front.

Trike leaver: Dual function brake lever




So motorized bikes use them to pull front & back so they can have a clutch with the other hand.

This is interesting:
https://kcsbikes.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=105


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Old 08-26-17, 07:29 PM
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Awesome I have those on my list already to buy. Great to see I am going in the right direction. You rock.

I did post to the Frame builders, and added new updates. Here are two: Front and side. I do not want the center frame that sloped, but, with the connection to the head tubes I think this design might be the best yet.
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Old 08-26-17, 07:41 PM
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Having two rear wheels does not mean you need two shifting mechanisms. I wouldn't do it. Imagine having two transmissions for a car, you'd never get them synced.

Once upon a time, I paid my bills riding a pedicab, IE - white guy rickshaw. They are trikes. The rear wheels have a big solid (or maybe differential) axle and a single cassette/rear derailleur. I am sure Mainstreet pedicabs would sell you an axle if you asked.

Are you paraplegic? I bet that you could find a grant to build/buy a handcycle. Have you spoken to Paradox Sports out of Boulder? Mal Daly would be a great start, I don't know if you can get something but I'm sure he would be able to point you in the right direction.

Good luck. I want to see pics of a completed project.

Edit: I've personally seen Paradox build an ice axe arm for a one armed climber. I've seen them build probably 30 different feet for one footed climbers. I know they also deal with adaptive cycling. I'm not blowing smoke here. Contact them, at the very least they will refer you to a fountain of info. They may take on the project. I've never heard of them charging anyone for consultation.

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Old 08-27-17, 08:11 AM
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trikes usually drive just one wheel.
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Old 08-27-17, 09:11 AM
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Pedicabs are not built like typical trikes. I am afraid that all that stuff is just too heavy for what the OP wants though. It would work but he's not looking for a rig that can repeatedly carry 600+ lbs of drunken football fans and bachelorettes. Browse the Mainstreet site though, it might give you some ideas you hadn't previously had.

Axle/Differential Complete Set - Main Street Pedicab Parts

Drive Hub Complete - Main Street Pedicab Parts
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Old 08-27-17, 09:17 AM
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Sorry for the repeated posts, this stuff really interests me. I'm sure you've googled "handcycles" just to view images of other ones. It looks like a lot of them are front drive trikes. That could be done a lot easier with a much shorter chain.
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Old 08-27-17, 09:30 AM
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I don't get it. You are designing something that will probably weigh in more than 70 lbs, has excess friction and complexity, as well as some apparently impractical design elements, in the quest of what? Even your design of having separate cranks is flawed, as the ergonomics of turning a small radius with each hand outboard of your body would be very inefficient.
Handcycles are available at under $2000, and I easily found lots of listings for used ones well under $1000. I know you may be on a budget, but the fact that it's now so easy to "build" something in 3D is no guarantee it will be easy or even practical in real life.
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Old 08-27-17, 09:45 AM
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This project may interest you:https://digitalcommons.calpoly.edu/cg...3&context=mespThe Quadricycle Hand and Foot Cycle
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There's no such thing as a routine repair.

Don't tell me what "should" be - either it is, it isn't, or do something about it.

If you think I'm being blunt take it as a compliment - if I thought you were too weak to handle the truth or a strong opinion I would not bother.

Please respect others by taking the time to post clearly so we can answer quickly. All lowercase and multiple typos makes for a hard read. Thanks!
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Old 08-27-17, 01:28 PM
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Hi everyone,

@rosefarts - Loved all your posts. You are awesome.
Trikes as mentioned do typically use only one drive wheel. Also the type of bike you mention as stated uses a much different heavier axle than needed for this. Although you go me thinking about how some trikes or tadpoles use a differential - I can look into those to see the costs involved.

I am not seeking funding for this project, although grants never entered my mind. If I do try to build a lighter less budget minded build that could be a great option.

My goal is to use retail priced parts/bikes to create an affordable handcycle for casual riders.

Source bikes: Two identical mountain bikes in name only from Walmart for about $125 each. They feature 21 speeds. 26 inch wheels. And, are full suspension.

The full suspension creates a smaller rear triangle section, and the parts I leave off like the springs won't be missed. Also, these are about the lowest costs I can find for retail prices. So as for chain length it is kept to what is on the bikes. Personally only I like the rear drive options better. My weight will be over those wheels more, and to me that makes sense for traction.

My total cost will be about $450 to build.

Before everyone jumps in with those are garbage bikes. I know this. These are just bikes that roll. They don't perform like the real mountain bikes sold. But, they offer the parts I need overall.

What I hope to do is build this as a proof of concept that it is possible to build an affordable handcycle.

And I will look into that company/organization you mentioned, thanks for all the ideas and help.



@cny-bikeman Great points. Also thank you for that awesome link. You rock.
My post is not stated in anger, or any other attitude. You bring very good points to this conversation, and I appreciate them all.

Weight concern. 70 plus pounds for this build.

I shared an image of me, and I will break down the weight involved.

Wheelchair alone: 20 Pounds. Yellow trailer: weighs in at a solid 80 pounds empty. The rear trailer weighs about 85 pounds empty. I weigh 221 pounds. Inside of the trailers is wet mulch - yellow wagon 5-6 cubic yards - the rear trailer is holding 11 cubic yards as I pile it higher than the top on each. This is a considered a lighter load for me.

Dry weight alone I am moving 406 pounds. I have pulled 13 40 pound landscape bricks in the yellow wagon.
I have hauled 50 to 60 ten pound retaining wall bricks between the two wagons.

I do not only pull this on the smooth street. I cross my yard with these things as well. Natural storm drains, slopes and other natural hurdles, not just on dry days, sometimes while raining.

The weight I pull is between 300 to 600 pounds on top of the dry weight. So the idea of only moving 70 to say 150 pounds is nothing to me. Friction - I overcome so much friction just using my wheelchair every day than I will ever with this handcycle. Then add to that my enjoyment, yes I enjoy doing yard work using my methods because it offers a challenge. I do have an electric wheelchair that I can use also tow these things, the e-chair makes it easy.

Next the impractical dual drive wheels/train. The rear drive with my weight over it just makes sense to me.
As for the outside my body hand points... Wheelchairs shoot this theory down as you see in racing wheelchairs, daily use wheelchairs, sport wheelchairs oddly enough all of these use hand points that work more like pedals for able people do. They are where your hands would naturally fall next to you. Pedals are directly inline with your legs/hips and feet. So I am not sure why the dual hand points would not work. Unlike most hand cranks I can freewheel back one or the other and enter the rowing mode when i need to. However, like when I am pulling my yellow wagon up a hill of about 800 or more yards I like to use the alternating hand position... Or on my impractical wheelchair drive wheels I push one then the other alternating. I know I should in theory steer off the path and crash, right? Wrong. I continue to move straight due to the alternating hand pushes. And, I can move along at a better pace than just using the dual synced hand placement. Having the option to change it up on the fly is a massive advantage I feel. Ergonomically this is the most advantageous for a hand user.

Shifting the gears will be no different really syncing my hands do keep me moving where I want to go. I just move both rear levers at the same time and rate.

This design also allows me to be in a lower seating position, keeping the length of the bike shorter, and center of gravity lower for a more balanced ride. The higher you go up with center of gravity the easier you are to tip. Although it does make it easier to transfer in and out of also. But, I never once claimed I wanted easy.

Seat position the back needs to adjust separately from the seat pan. Many recumbent bikes offer a single piece set up, and I need to adjust to certain positions that some of the two part seats may not offer me. It's annoying. That brings me to an issue I have, that will not apply to most people.

I can not sit with my legs out in front while moving. This causes my back to spasm like a beast. While I love my wheelchair seating position... I would like to bring it lower to the ground for balance, and have multiple leg position options. None of them with my legs next to the front wheels.

I have decided to see if it is possible to build a low cost handcycle quad design out of new retail parts, in a design I would like. That eliminates trike styles. Tadpole styles. Both are good options, and offer pros and cons of about the same in different areas. The saying 6 of one half dozen of another comes to mind here.

I do know that 3D models do not equal an easy real world build. But, they are great for rough drafting things and with awesome people like you and everyone else so far I can model thing to reflect your input, thus showing I grasp what your sharing also. If I only depended on real world process... I would just post the finished project photos and the option to make changes is so much harder at that point. They can be done... But, 3D modeling in this case does make it easier to visualize only.

I must say though I love the post you made more than you will know. Again, I am not upset, angry or anything. If my post came across as such it is not meant that way at all. Just trying to answer your post as best I can.

I didn't imagine the conversation going this direction. But, I am sure happy it did. Your mention of used handcycles under $1000 is spot on. I found one right after reading your post. That was pretty awesome I must say. Much I what I shared you had no way to know. I took a good part of my day replying to this. Like I mentioned I do like a challenge, you my friend brought it. Nice work.

I must say this site is amazing. Awesome to meet all of you.
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Old 08-27-17, 02:07 PM
  #23  
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Did a check online found this SportsAbilities Adaptive Sports $500 it is a decent ride. I am not looking for a road bike. This offers 7 speeds, I am looking for a 21 speed.

Then I found this offer for $1,000 Handcycle 4 sale

I would not say I can find lots of $1,000 and under handcycles that meet what I am seeking.

I am seeking a off road 4 wheel NOT EXTREME handcycle that offers a recumbent seat position, 21 speeds for $1,000 or less.

Typically this is what I find: Top End Top End Excelerator XLT - Top End Handcycles
Road only bike.

And for off road I find things like this Home - ReActive Adaptations I'm not looking to go rock climbing, or so off road I need people with me to help if I get stuck. Off road like what a Walmart bike allows.


It is like knowing what you want in a car, or bike... You want x number of speeds, you want a certain tire size, you want a particular frame type based on how you will ride. Thankfully for able people the options are endless. From the things Walmart sells to the awesome works of art that are the real deals.

Trying to locate the ride that meets your needs sometimes can't just be found. At least for me so far.

I have gotten some great insight and ideas so far.

Turns out Paradox is a climbing company. I read the story on the person with one arm getting a climbing arm, incredible story.

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Old 08-27-17, 06:06 PM
  #24  
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The hand cranks are too close to the riders chest
to get any real strength you're going to want to be cranking your arms out where the 'handlebars' in your picture are currently located.

this is the reason why most handcycles combine the handlebars and cranks as a single unit
also how they avoid the dual-drivetrain-double-the-price-double-the-weight problem
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Old 08-27-17, 07:07 PM
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I can see you have put much thought into your project, but I stand by my points - with some more detail. As someone else noted, your wheels, both front and rear, with be rolling through different arcs when turning. For the front wheels that is even more problematic when the wheel is mounted on a tilted/raked fork so means quite a bit of resistance. For the rear that means that you will have to turn the outside crank much faster than the inside one if you want to drive both. I would also anticipate that normal variation in the terrain each is traveling over would make "pedaling" difficult.

Four wheels and weight over the back wheel means you may find a front wheel not contacting the ground when off-road. As to overall weight, the problem is that you are starting out with over 70lbs before any payload, let alone 4 wheels of resistance.

Finally the problem I see with separate cranks outboard is that you are rotating a fairly small circle and rather close to your body, so likely would be using much less of your shoulder muscles than with a wheelchair, and you don't have the advantage of opposition and being able to use both your shoulder and core muscles as with a hand-driven trike. (I will admit this one is a seat of the pants guess - I could certainly be wrong. ...Now that I think about it, there is an advantage to having them to the side, and that is that you could increase the length of the crank arms to give you more leverage, though the problem of the cranks being too close may preclude that being helpful.
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