Swapping rims, trying to keep the rest
 

A while back I ordered custom wheels from Chain Reaction. I was really tight on the budget so I went cheap on my rims & spokes, with the intention to change them down the road. I'm now looking at changing them to Stan's Arch MK3, and the ERD is only a 2mm diff. I'm contemplating the idea of doing a straight swap, as I've read a 1mm difference for the spokes is acceptable.

Back story, the hubs are Hope Pro4s. Spokes are plain gauge DT Champions, nipples are brass. I'd be going from a WTB i23 to the Arch MK3. I've ridden these wheels about a dozen times, wheels have been true since delivery. Nipples untouched etc.

I'm going to get the wheels out and pull the rim strips to check the nipples/spokes etc in the bed. What should I be looking for to see if this will work or not?

I recommend getting new hubs and spokes and keeping your original wheels as backups. Nothing quite so useful as a backup set of wheels, unless you have a complete backup bike.

Maybe first swap in butted spokes so they'll be right for the rims. Then swap the rims after another dozen rides. Then swap the hubs.

Hey, you'll have NEW-new wheels after only 36 rides! (Then plan for new nipples.)

Seems a good response to the problem of what to do with newish true wheels on a tight budget.

If the ERD is 1-2mm smaller than the old rim, maybe... if it's bigger, replace the spokes. I had a set of factory wheels that were built with spokes a couple mm short and I kept breaking the heads off of the nipples. Rebuilt them with proper length spokes and they have been rock solid for about 2 years.

That being said, there is a fine line if the spokes are longer than you need. Long spokes and you run the risk of running out of thread and bottoming out the nipple before the spoke's fully tensioned. If you don't care about adding a little extra weight, you could possibly get away with adding nipple washers, but really the best solution is to replace the spokes with the rims (that's what I'm in the process of doing right now).

Or, like [MENTION=189195]TrojanHorse[/MENTION] said, just get a second set of wheels. I currently have three more sets of wheels than I have bikes.

What's the difference in ERD? +2 or -2?
Look at the existing nipples and see where the spoke end is in relation to the screwdriver slot.

If below the slot, a larger ERD will make it shorter yet.

Assuming the published ERD "could" be problematic. More so if different manfs.
OTOH, if it doesn't work, you could always reassemble the old wheels or buy the correct parts.

Current rims are published ERD of 540mm, new rims are published ERD of 542mm. Perhaps it isn't worth it to go cheap on this and avoid the spoke cost etc...

Rim swapping is less work than relacing a wheel, and if you get to keep good spokes that are already seated and stress-relieved, all the better. I tape the rims together (with paper towel or something between them so the braking surfaces don't scratch each other), but the double-rimmed wheel on the truing stand, and move the spokes over one by one before building up tension on the new rim.
That said, you're starting out with cheaper spokes (I'm guessing 2.0 straight-gauge aka 14-gauge), and the ERD difference may be problematic. If you're going to replace spokes and rim, I'd recommend you keep your current wheels (hubs aren't that expensive) and just build new wheels.

If you already have butted spokes (typically 2.0/1.8/2.0 in the cheaper versions), then you could swap the rim if either of the following conditions are met:
* If the new rim has slightly smaller ERD (-2), you could get away with it if the spokes seem a touch on the short side already.
* If the new rim has a slightly larger ERD (+2), you could get away with it if the spokes seem a touch on the long side already.
Note that spokes will only be 1mm shorter or longer than before, for a rim diameter that is 2mm shorter or longer. So you have some flexibility here.

Assuming the ERD's are correct, you'd need a 1mm longer spoke.
IF your current wheel has the spoke end slightly long, you should be good. Slightly short and expect possible nipple breakage.

Thanks guys, great info here! Glad I asked as there is a lot more going on than I thought.

So, you need to look at where the spokes end on the curent build. The spoke end "target" is, typically, the bottom of the nipple screwdriver slot. The depth of the srewdriver slot is about 1mm below the end of the nipple. If the spoke ends reach the end of the nipple, or extend beyond it, on every spoke, you stand a good chance.

As already mentioned, ERD values that you find, even when published by the rim maker, may be different than what you may consider ideal. Also, with dished wheels, ideal spoke length will be different for each side so you may have different spoke end location for the drive and non-drive sides of a dished rear wheel, for example. So, check every spoke.

The only time I re-use straight gauge spokes on a wheel is if I'm trying to do it as cheap as possible, or to keep some originality. [MENTION=476460]chaseme[/MENTION], if you do rebuild your wheels, they deserve better spokes. :thumb:

Something else to consider is how old is the current wheel?
Depending on time/conditions, the nipples may have started to corrode to the spokes.
Even if light, it reduces your "feel" when tensioning. Depending on the severity, it can become a PITA.
It makes it way more difficult if you are an inexperienced wheel builder.

In the end I'm going to go all new, re-using my Hope hubs. Thanks for the reality check all!

Generally it is bad practice to reuse spokes. Plus you spent the money to build the wheels so taking them apart would be a little silly. Just build a new set and have some back ups or if you really don't care about money re use the hubs and rims either for that build or another.

An Identical Rim, replacing a Pringled /taco bent one , when the spokes were not very old, has worked for me..

Question (one I ask my self a lot) How much benefit/improvement will you get from the new rims? Will it really be that much? If not, use them as they are, put the $$ you would spend redoing them into the jar for saving for a new wheelset

I think your statement leaves too many variables unstated for it to be useful advice. One way I suggest you could improve it that if you are going to claim it is "generally" bad practice, there is the clear implication that there are some specific situations in which it would be an acceptable practice. It would be most helpful to share what you believe those specifics are.

But I frankly disagree anyway. It is my personal and professional experience that even mediocre-quality spokes in a reasonably well-built wheel will easily outlast many rims. One reason may be that the majority of riders will never put enough mileage and/or load on their wheels to cause their spokes to break from fatigue.

But it has even more to do with steel's properties. From a theoretical standpoint, steel has no fatigue limit. IOW, if steel spokes are kept under a certain threshold of stress, and there aren't stress risers that precipitate premature failure, they will have what's considered by engineers to be an infinite fatigue life. That's what's cool about steel in the first place. And this correlates very well to my experience, which is that the overwhelming majority of spoke failures I've seen have been due to physical damage like corrosion or notching, improper build processes and tensioning, or defective manufacturing.

So IMPO, if you aren't having problems with your current spokes, and they are the correct length, there are few if any compelling reasons or situations not to reuse them. If you remove them from the hub (which there is no reason to do for a simple rim swap) then it is best to separate them into head-in/head-out piles and retain that orientation when relacing. Having done that, you can build with them with good confidence.

It depends. Aiming for the nipple slots, spokes 1mm too short can break nipples. Aiming for the tops, 1.5mm too long will bottom nipples. Although the published ERD is only 2mm off, actual ERDs can vary by 1-2mm from published.

Buy your rims, measure ERD, then get spokes if what you have don't match.

If they do match, remove tension, tape the new rims to the old in three places, move spokes one at a time, remove the old rim, and tension + true normally.

Throwing out spokes is silly when the wheels were properly built. They last hundreds of thousands of miles, and swapping rims is faster without re-lacing.

All the mechanics (who also build wheels) I have worked with over the years have generally suggested not doing this. I never said anything about throwing out spokes...make skewers out of them and grill up some rum soaked pineapple for a tasty treat :)

All the professional mechanics you talked to were dealing with wheels of unknown provenance where customers would expect them to personally resolve any issues. I wouldn't reuse spokes in that situation either.

In a wheels I built I do. Jobst Brandt did and had 300,000 or 400,000 miles on his spokes having replaced rims and bearings numerous times.

If you trust the wheel builder and lengths match, there's no reason not to.

That one's harder. I'd trust myself to build or stress relieve wheels. I would only trust single person operations where the hands that earned the reputation built the wheels.

Not necessarily in some cases they were known who built them. Yes of course a wheel of unknown provenance I would 110% not reuse spokes but I still generally wouldn't swap spokes on most any wheel unless the wheel had a really light life and even then I don't know. Jobst Brandt did a lot of things and was highly regarded and for many still is however I won't always agree with him.

I generally don't trust my wheel builds with anyone that I don't know well or know of their expertise and wheel mastery. My touring wheels were built up by Bill Mould for instance and he is pretty well known for his wheels...Hubba Hubba:roflmao2:The wheels have been perfect but I know I wouldn't swap spokes on that just because those wheels have seen and are going to continue seeing some serious use.

I agree that Jobst wasn't always 100% correct (who is?) but to imply that that 110% negates reusing spokes is really an ad hominem fallacy, and not a compelling argument. Make your point on its merits, not on Jobst's reputation.

Depending on the wheel design, of course, the chance of a single spoke fatigue failure in a reasonably well-built traditional wheel is extremely low. The more extreme the wheel design, the closer to the cutting edge it is, the less margin of error there is. Of course that has to be taken into account. Even so, the chances of multiple spoke failures is exponentially lower. The chance of complete wheel failure due to multiple spoke failures is exponentially lower still. And even when spokes fail, it's usually a simple matter to replace them.

I highly recommend you read this post:
Spoke Breakage - Getting Real - Wheel Fanatyk
In fact, I recommend you spend a lot of time on that site. Great for busting superstitions about spokes and wheels.

The thing here for me is that OP is replacing wheels built by a wheelbuilder, with wheels built by himself.

What features do the Stans rims have that the WTB rims do not? Tubeless beads? You can buy a kit from Stan's that will accommodate that.

[MENTION=476460]chaseme[/MENTION], which WTB rims are you using, specifically? I would guess from your comments about starting out cheap that you're on the Frequency Team, but those have a published ERD of only 536, so I don't see reusing those spokes on a 542mm ERD rim even if you wanted to.

Which is just as well, because butted spokes are kinder to really lightweight rims.

If you're re-using the hubs, make sure that the new spokes are in the same position on the new wheel. A trailing spoke should be in a trailing spoke hole in the hub. Same for leading, This will help to equalize the tension on the hub flange. The holes in the flange deform a bit when tensioned (aluminum is softer than steel), and for the maximum hub life, you want to keep that tension in the same direction.

Not to try and change the topic, but last fall (November-ish) I was thinking about building my own set of wheels for the first time, when I noticed this guy's bike on the ferry I take to work in the morning (and no, the bike next to it isn't mine either. I don't like hanging my bike by the front wheel).

I was amazing to watch him get on the bike and ride away when we got off the boat, with just a little bit of pinging from the broken spokes as they strummed on the stays. He didn't seem bothered at all.

So imagine my shock when I saw this guy again a few days ago with his bike in the exact same state! The rear wheel is exactly the same and he is still riding it like nothing is wrong! The guy looks pretty normal too.

Anyway, aside from providing me with the confidence that I could build my own 32 spoke wheels (because if this guy's wheel hasn't catastrophically failed, I shouldn't be too worried), it makes me wonder just how bad a spoke failure would be on a wheel with non-straight pull spokes and a decently high spoke count? Are we a little too obsessed about the details?

Oh, absolutely. :thumb:

We always get "wrapped around the axle" discussing spoke count, spoke type, rims, tension, stress-relieving, and other best practices, but there are millions of "sub-optimal" bike wheels out there doing their job, regardless.

You should get a spoke wrench and give it a whirl!

If this were me, I would take the cheap rims, the cheap spokes and buy some cheap hubs to put them with. Generally, if spokes were crossed, the difference between two hubs on spoke length is going to be very small (because the spoke attaches to the side of the flange, not the top).

And then I would buy nice rims and butted spokes from the Hope hubs.

I did! I built my own set over the winter, but haven't had a chance to thoroughly test them yet. I think they came out OK, and they look very true for now (what a pleasure watching them go around with the bike in the stand), so let's just hope they stay that way after I ride them.

The project bike they are mounted on is almost finished, so I should know by next week. I'll post pics in here, somewhere...