torger

I have a Cannondale CAADX Apex 1. I truly enjoy this bike and while I don't do cyclocross racing (the sport doesn't exist around here), I do playful improvised cycling sometimes through mud, sand, dirt.

And well, the SRAM Apex 1 shifting sucks. As long as the system is clean, it shifts fine. But as soon as there's starting to be some dirt buildup, it starts to hesitate and miss-shift. You kind of need to resort to shift up twice and down one to get it to move one cog. Partly I blame the idiotic cable routing on the CAADX frame, the wires are naked on the downtube. I'm also not impressed by the SRAM Apex hydraulic shifters which have a strange bend of the shifting wire already inside the shifter causing extra friction there.

Anyway, after changing to a sealed Jagwire kit it improved, but still the shifting gets gradually worse the more dirt and grime that buildup during the ride. And then I just do some passages through dirt, I'm not completely covered in mud like you see cyclocross racers can be.

This is my only experience with offroad riding so I don't know how bad riding through mud should be for shifting. Any experiences?

I like 1x11 (I have a long cage and 44T front and 11-42 back, changed gearing from original to get more climbing range and higher top speed), but I also like shifting to work in harsh conditions, if possible. Say if upgrading to a Rival 1 group would solve the problem I would do it, but I would be very disappointed if it would shift just as bad as my current Apex.

Andrew R Stewart 

This is no different then what mud riders have dealt with for decades. What compounds your situation is the narrow clearances/tolerances that an 11 spd system has and how grit effects the tiny window of index adjustment these systems have. An upgrade will make some difference but the base issues will remain. Exactly how much difference on your bike in the conditions you ride in and then filtered through your expectations is what no one but you can say. Andy

torger

Seems like my friends on Shimano 2x11 have less issues. Or they just notice them less. I'm thinking that maybe the long cage makes the system more sensitive. But MTB folks run long cages and in mud and I don't hear them complain much.

I have a theory, that the poor friction-prone wire routing on this bike is putting the rear derailleur at it's limit so any disturbances with dirt causes problem. The symptoms is exactly the same as that of too much friction. The wires are fresh, and it's not the first time I change them, so I don't think it's worn wires. I'm thinking about returning to non-sealed wires and re-route over the top tube and see if that helps.

When putting the wire in the Apex shifter I've noted that there is an aggressive bend right there inside the shifter body, not at all like in my Campangolo road bike shifters which has much smoother bend. So the friction right out of the shifter seems quite high. I think this may be a design issue with the Apex, and the reason the routing is like that is to fit the hydraulics for the brake. I haven't seen the Rival or Force hydraulic shifters so I don't know if it's better there. Then Cannondale wire routing on the bike has been made to neatly tuck away the cable under the downtube, favoring neatness over low friction so there's much more bending to the wires than on my road bikes. The Jagwire sealed kit does keep mud away from the wire (and that seems to have improved the situation somewhat), but sealing itself adds some friction. I'm thinking that maybe this adds up to a friction level that just is too high to work with mud on top.

cpach

I doubt different shifters will help. Potentially the tolerances on a Force derailleur may be a bit better. A cassette with more open space, like the 1175 cassette, might help with mud clearance as well.

It should go without saying, but ensure that your derailleur is set up perfectly on a perfectly straight hanger; what may be a just-adequate setup may reveal its inadequacy under poor conditions. One note is that that long cage 1x rear derailleur has a different chain gap adjustment (aka b tension). SRAM has a little tool for setting this, but basically the pulley should be 15mm away from the cog when shifted into the lowest gear. This is different than how you'd set up most derailleurs and I see a lot of bikes set up incorrectly in this regard. Setting it to spec will generally improve shift performance in general.

torger

Thanks for the details, I'll review the setup. I have fiddled with those things, straightened the hanger etc, but I'll have another look.

Kapusta

Is this “sealed Jagwire kit” full length housing?

In my experience, nothing is as well sealed as running full length housing. I run it on all of my mtb rear deraileurs.

torger

Yep it's the full length housing, and indeed it's well sealed, but it does add some friction over having a (dirt-free) naked cable, I'm thinking that maybe if I can lower friction further it would be behave more stable in muddy conditions. With top-tube routing I could have naked cable up there and then housing down the seatstay to the derailleur, which should be a bit lower friction I guess.

fietsbob

1st cyclocross book by Simon Burney favored 6 speeds for their functional advantage in mud, because of the wider spacing

SRAM machined from one piece cassettes had a lot of interior openness due to the metal removed in manufacturing them..

Muddy courses, it helps to go with 2 bikes and a friend to wash off the other bike ,

and swap back the next lap or 2 past the pits..





..

torger

It's actually not too much mud on my rides, it's more sand than mud. Dirt roads, gravel, and some occasional short passage through a bit of grass/mud. It's no way like a muddy cyclocross course.

Just washed the bike up for my next ride tomorrow, and the shifting is bad as ever even after wash. It's always the same problem -- too much friction. Shifting to larger cogs work, as then cable is pulled and friction is no problem. Clicking to smaller cogs, the derailleur doesn't move until I make some more clicks or when on a work stand I push it out with my fingers. I'm starting to be really frustrated with this. I've swapped wires several times, now running with sealed wires, but still the same. Gets worse during the ride depending on dirt/wet/mud, and then after a few rides and cleaning cycles the derailleur struggles with friction even when freshly cleaned. This is actually the second CAADX Apex 1 I have, I had a size too small earlier so I traded up, and the old one had exactly the same problems.

I'll go with crappy shifting tomorrow, but then I need to try figuring it out again and perhaps come up with some other solution.

Racing Dan

And you are sure its not the rear derailleur that has a weak spring or gets clogged with dirt?

torger

I'm not sure about anything any longer :-/. I had the same problems with the same model bike a size smaller. I have an extra new-in-box Apex 1 rear derailleur in my workshop which I could try, but I find it unlikely that both the old and current bike would have bad springs. Maybe it gets clogged by the sandy mud/grit it sees though. I haven't deep-cleaned the stuff, but it would not be great if I would need to clean the bike for just as long time I ride the bike, or replace wires after three rides. I want something more reliable and robust than that.

I will review things like chain line b tension and chain length and see if it can be related to that. But my current guess is that it's mostly a design issue with the cable routing combined with the sharp bend high friction routing inside the Apex shifter itself.

In addition to the friction issue I also find it quite difficult to tune, to get it to shift 100% perfectly like my road bike. For example being at the largest cog (42T) shifting to one smaller cog it easily jumps down two. I guess that can be a chain line issue, and perhaps also an issue with flex in the long cage. With wires fresh etc I get it to shift fine but the systems seems to be very delicate and sensitive so from that I'm not that surprised that problems almost immediately appear when there is some dirt spraying around.

In a review of the Cannondale CAADX Apex 1 I saw recently they did mention friction problems briefly:
https://www.cxmagazine.com/cannondal...ke-review-2017
Quote: "Over time, the externally-routed shift cable did suffer some extra friction and shifting hesitation due to the dirt accumulating in the guide beneath the bottom bracket and in the final loop of housing before the rear derailleur. I’d prefer to see a full-length housing run, or perhaps a sealed cable set to mitigate this."

I do have a sealed cable now, but the full-length run add some base friction too and all seems to add up to "too much" for the slightest disturbance by dirt.