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-   Bicycle Mechanics (https://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-mechanics/)
-   -   Wheel Build Question: (https://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-mechanics/1158263-wheel-build-question.html)

mrrabbit 10-18-18 09:56 PM
Middleweight rim....something in the 700 x 15 to 700 x 17. 525 - 600g range.
Preferably with eyelets or double eyelets.
32 Hole will be fine...
2.34/1.8/2.0 spokes (13/15/14)

Don't worry about 11 speed hubs.

Both Shimano and Campy actually countered what would have been an increased asymmetrical dish problem with a shift in the freehub body. Diagrams available in Google Images show this.

I'm surprised so many people here are unaware of this.

Most important thing of all, is, who is building your wheels?

=8-)

WizardOfBoz 10-18-18 10:01 PM
Originally Posted by AnkleWork (Post 20623018)
25mm tires!?! I wouldn't worry about exceeding the hub's weight limit by seven percent.
Yeah, I weigh 245 and found 26s and 28s and 32s mm tires (on an old Schwinn actually 27x1-1/4) much more comfortable. 28 is going to be my standards road ride going forward.

Good luck and have fun! Report back!

Kimmo 10-18-18 10:19 PM
Originally Posted by mrrabbit (Post 20623508)
Don't worry about 11 speed hubs.

Both Shimano and Campy actually countered what would have been an increased asymmetrical dish problem with a shift in the freehub body.
Eh? Shimano's 11s hubs have pretty bad flange offset compared to 8/9/10.

What's this shift you're talking about...?

mrrabbit 10-18-18 11:32 PM
Originally Posted by fietsbob (Post 20622958)
a dishless rear wheel , your 11 a Shimano Alfine IGH has advantages over a cassette wheel

because you crank the drive side spokes tighter, to force the hubshell to the left,
to make room for that stack of 11 cogs ..
a dishless cassette hub is achieved with a wider hub-axle , 145 or more..

which is a reason why tandems have really wide rear hubs..

Co Motion Went that way for some of their single touring bikes..





....
As I have explained here many times over . . . there is no such thing as a "dishless" wheel for the 99.99% symmetrical bicycle frames we ride on.

ALL bicycle wheels have dish.

What you mean to say is a wheels with LESS asymmetrical dish of the appearance kind of dish.

Poison for those who don't know what they're doing.

=8-(


.

mrrabbit 10-18-18 11:35 PM
Originally Posted by Kimmo (Post 20623527)
Eh? Shimano's 11s hubs have pretty bad flange offset compared to 8/9/10.

What's this shift you're talking about...?
They shaved the inside spline stop...and slid the freehub body outward .9 to1.2mm to cancel what would have been an increase in asymmetry.

In other words, tension, balanced tension, trueness and proper stress relieving are your most important concerns - assuming a decent rim and spokes for this particular build.

=8-)

mrrabbit 10-18-18 11:39 PM
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1680&bih=953&ei=eG3JW9eaJe-I_Qax0aewBg&q=10+speed+v.+11+speed+campy&oq=10+speed+v.+11+speed+campy&gs_l=img.3...1623.6215..6447. ..0.0..0.126.3001.0j26......0....1..gws-wiz-img.......0j0i5i30j0i8i30.R0wOiI4cJrM#imgrc=v50DtTQfcwX6MM:

Note the difference is less than 1mm.

16.8mm v. 16.2mm for drive offset - freehub push outward by extending OLD from 130 to 131.

Not something to lose sleep over.

=8-)

Retro Grouch 10-19-18 06:12 AM
Originally Posted by sdmc530 (Post 20622800)
I probably will not get cheap on the rims and just buy those new as well.
Good decision. MUCH easier for a first wheel build to start with a rim that is flat and round.

sdmc530 10-19-18 07:31 AM
Originally Posted by WizardOfBoz (Post 20623514)
Yeah, I weigh 245 and found 26s and 28s and 32s mm tires (on an old Schwinn actually 27x1-1/4) much more comfortable. 28 is going to be my standards road ride going forward.

Good luck and have fun! Report back!
FYI my bike won't hold anything bigger than 25 on the front, no room.
I will keep you all posted on this build.

cyccommute 10-19-18 07:53 AM
Originally Posted by sdmc530 (Post 20622259)
Rear is a different animal I know. All my bikes have 36 spoke wheels on the rear. When I go to start looking at rims if I can go down to a 32 drillings the rim options are endless, but if I stick with 36 I am really limited to just a slim few. Can I build a 32 rear rim that will not cause havoc? I ride pavement 95% of the time and roads around here are not too bad.
The rims, whatever drilling they have, aren't going to make that much difference. Rims aren't the structural component that you need to worry about. What you should consider is the spokes...not necessarily the number but the type. This article details why you should consider triple butted spokes rather than double butted spokes. Spokes like the DT Swiss Alpine III will build into a much stronger wheel with the same rim with only a minimal weight penalty. What rim you use is unimportant with one caveat.

I would suggest trying to find off-center drilled rims. Velocity A23 OC rims have an offset to them that allows for more even tension between the two sides of the wheel. That goes a long way towards a more durable wheel. Combined with a triple butted spoke, a wheel built around an OC rim is approaching as bomb proof as you can get.

Originally Posted by sdmc530 (Post 20622397)
fair question:
36 wheel options are well UGLY...there are some really nice looking 32H options. Durability is always on the forefront I guess. My current wheels look terrible to be fair and hubs are just not great quality I don't think. I don't care much about the actual weight of the wheels because I am the heavy part of the bike.

So really its just to a point of vanity and better quality hubs.
Honestly, I doubt you could tell from across the room if a wheel is a 32 or 36. I suspect that most people couldn't tell the difference, at a glance, between a 28 and a 40 spoke wheel. If, however, you use a triple butted spoke, you could easily go to a 32 and have just as durable wheel as a 36 spoke wheel with straight gauge or double butted spokes.

Originally Posted by sdmc530 (Post 20622580)
So I just got back from my bike shop. I have a great shop and talking to them and they had a pretty good idea actually. Being I have 36 spoke rims, why not just disassemble what I have, purchase new "pretty" better hubs and re-build. They suggested I strip the rims and just re-decal them with something else or leave plain black. rims now are black with some ugly decals that I could remove. Nothing wrong with the rims in reality.

I do run 11 speed and budged would be let say under $600? If that seems reasonable for some "blingy" hubs...…

I need to think this over a bit more maybe, this does seem like a good idea maybe
If you were only replacing the rim, I would say you could use the spokes and hub without problem as long as the rim has the same ERD. But replacing the hub is a different animal and you probably shouldn't reuse the spokes. Even the rim is a bit iffy. Since you want to replace the hub, just keep the other wheel as a back up and build a new wheel.

jack002 10-19-18 01:35 PM
Originally Posted by 79pmooney (Post 20622854)
No! You absolutely do not want rim breaks! Now, I have no issues with caliper brakes, also known as rim brakes, but stay away from those breaks! They can lead to real pain. (You break a twig; you brake a train.) Sorry, this is a pet peeve of mine. :)

Ben
There is also a poster with a SIG that has LOSE spelled LOOSE. My pet peeve too.

sdmc530 10-19-18 02:15 PM
Originally Posted by jack002 (Post 20624306)
There is also a poster with a SIG that has LOSE spelled LOOSE. My pet peeve too.
LMAO, I bet...... :)

sdmc530 10-19-18 02:19 PM
@cyccommute

Here is where I am at:

Velocity 36h rims, I think the model is the v or deep v or something like that. 36h, rear 32h front. I a going with Hope hubs because I can get red, I want red and I can get the drillings I like. I will take your spoke recommendation and use the dt alpine III spokes.

Only thing I have not decided on is the spoke nipples, going for black. Should I use brass or alloy version?

Retro Grouch 10-19-18 02:41 PM
Originally Posted by sdmc530 (Post 20624386)
@cyccommute

Here is where I am at:

Velocity 36h rims, I think the model is the v or deep v or something like that. 36h, rear 32h front. I a going with Hope hubs because I can get red, I want red and I can get the drillings I like. I will take your spoke recommendation and use the dt alpine III spokes.

Only thing I have not decided on is the spoke nipples, going for black. Should I use brass or alloy version?
Brass.

masi61 10-19-18 03:03 PM
Originally Posted by sdmc530 (Post 20624386)
@cyccommute

Here is where I am at:

Velocity 36h rims, I think the model is the v or deep v or something like that. 36h, rear 32h front. I a going with Hope hubs because I can get red, I want red and I can get the drillings I like. I will take your spoke recommendation and use the dt alpine III spokes.

Only thing I have not decided on is the spoke nipples, going for black. Should I use brass or alloy version?
‘Are you sure you want the “Deep V” rims. Sure these were recommended for “Clyde” riders for many years as the go-to choice. The thing is, current designs have moved on. The Deep V’s I believe still only have an internal width of, say -17mm which is going to limit your future tire choices. Why not go with a semi-aero rim with an inner width of 19 to 20mm and an outer width of 23 to 25mm? Also a rim that is “tubeless ready” would be a better choice as well. I love my A23’s, and am stoked about the Quill rim from Velocity that is rim brake, wider profile and tubeless compatible. I believe the Quill would be a bit lighter than the Deep V’s.

I’ve heard mediocre reviews on the ride of the Deep V’s other than their durability. If you want more grip, handling, road feel but still durable - there are certainly more fun (and only slightly less safe) choices out there. Another option would be the HED Belgium Plus - it has fantastic quality control and checks all the boxes.

sdmc530 10-19-18 03:19 PM
Originally Posted by Retro Grouch (Post 20624423)
Brass.
thanks

sdmc530 10-19-18 03:20 PM
Originally Posted by masi61 (Post 20624464)


‘Are you sure you want the “Deep V” rims. Sure these were recommended for “Clyde” riders for many years as the go-to choice. The thing is, current designs have moved on. The Deep V’s I believe still only have an internal width of, say -17mm which is going to limit your future tire choices. Why not go with a semi-aero rim with an inner width of 19 to 20mm and an outer width of 23 to 25mm? Also a rim that is “tubeless ready” would be a better choice as well. I love my A23’s, and am stoked about the Quill rim from Velocity that is rim brake, wider profile and tubeless compatible. I believe the Quill would be a bit lighter than the Deep V’s.

I’ve heard mediocre reviews on the ride of the Deep V’s other than their durability. If you want more grip, handling, road feel but still durable - there are certainly more fun (and only slightly less safe) choices out there. Another option would be the HED Belgium Plus - it has fantastic quality control and checks all the boxes.

thanks for the insight. I actually love those HED rims but only 32 drillings scared me away. I will go back and check out the rims again. Really thank you. This thread has been very informative

cyccommute 10-19-18 05:13 PM
Originally Posted by sdmc530 (Post 20624386)
@cyccommute

Here is where I am at:

Velocity 36h rims, I think the model is the v or deep v or something like that. 36h, rear 32h front. I a going with Hope hubs because I can get red, I want red and I can get the drillings I like. I will take your spoke recommendation and use the dt alpine III spokes.

Only thing I have not decided on is the spoke nipples, going for black. Should I use brass or alloy version?
Alluminum but only if they are in splined versions. Wheel Fanatyk has them. I’ve used them for about a dozen wheels and they work quite well. I wouldn’t use square aluminum for much of anything anymore. I’m not that big of a fan of brass either...kind of boring and they will still round off.

cyccommute 10-19-18 05:28 PM
Originally Posted by masi61 (Post 20624464)


‘Are you sure you want the “Deep V” rims. Sure these were recommended for “Clyde” riders for many years as the go-to choice. The thing is, current designs have moved on. The Deep V’s I believe still only have an internal width of, say -17mm which is going to limit your future tire choices. Why not go with a semi-aero rim with an inner width of 19 to 20mm and an outer width of 23 to 25mm? Also a rim that is “tubeless ready” would be a better choice as well. I love my A23’s, and am stoked about the Quill rim from Velocity that is rim brake, wider profile and tubeless compatible. I believe the Quill would be a bit lighter than the Deep V’s.

I’ve heard mediocre reviews on the ride of the Deep V’s other than their durability. If you want more grip, handling, road feel but still durable - there are certainly more fun (and only slightly less safe) choices out there. Another option would be the HED Belgium Plus - it has fantastic quality control and checks all the boxes.

The Deep-V has an internal width of 14mm. The A23 has an external width of 23mm and an internal width of 18mm.

But there is too much made of tire width and rim width. The chart in this article from Mavic offers a much wider range of tire sizes then the chart that is often linked to. It’s much more in line with what I have experienced with tires on narrow rims. I run 55mm tires on 17mm rims with regularity and with no downside that I’ve experienced.

Finally, I think that the A23, especially with an off-centered rear, would be an excellent choice but I also have Deep-Vs on my touring bike. I haven’t experienced any handling issue with those rims.

masi61 10-20-18 07:45 AM
Originally Posted by sdmc530 (Post 20624491)



thanks for the insight. I actually love those HED rims but only 32 drillings scared me away. I will go back and check out the rims again. Really thank you. This thread has been very informative
No problem, good luck with whatever one you choose. I was not aware that HED Belgium + did not come in 36 spoke.

I ride Dura Ace 7700 nine speed hubs 36 rear and 32 front with the lighter weight DT Swiss butted spokes on A23 polished rims. I get a lot of compliments on the wheels - mainly how shiny and “old school cool” they are. They roll plenty fast and work great with 700x25 tires with Vittoria latex tubes....

masi61 10-20-18 07:51 AM
Originally Posted by cyccommute (Post 20624610)



The Deep-V has an internal width of 14mm. The A23 has an external width of 23mm and an internal width of 18mm.

But there is too much made of tire width and rim width. The chart in this article from Mavic offers a much wider range of tire sizes then the chart that is often linked to. It’s much more in line with what I have experienced with tires on narrow rims. I run 55mm tires on 17mm rims with regularity and with no downside that I’ve experienced.

Finally, I think that the A23, especially with an off-centered rear, would be an excellent choice but I also have Deep-Vs on my touring bike. I haven’t experienced any handling issue with those rims.
Just because you can mount these wider tires on 17mm width rims without issues does not make them optimal. When building fresh, I would think starting with the current crop of wider rims is going to have a potential for higher performance down the line as your sport riding advances more to quasi-racing level performance approaching that of tubular tires. I will check the Mavic article on compatibility though...

cyccommute 10-20-18 08:44 AM
Originally Posted by masi61 (Post 20625177)


Just because you can mount these wider tires on 17mm width rims without issues does not make them optimal. When building fresh, I would think starting with the current crop of wider rims is going to have a potential for higher performance down the line as your sport riding advances more to quasi-racing level performance approaching that of tubular tires. I will check the Mavic article on compatibility though...
It doesn’t make them suboptimal either. In my experience it has zero effect negative or positive with one exception, narrow rims are lighter where you want and need lightness.

I’m also not sure what you meant by “performance approaching that of tubular tires”. Tubular tires are set on relatively narrow rims and they have a very round profile. Wide rims force the tire to have a flatter, squarer profile that is nothing like any true tubular tire I’ve ever seen.

MobiBike 10-20-18 08:47 AM
Originally Posted by sdmc530 (Post 20624386)
@cyccommute
Only thing I have not decided on is the spoke nipples, going for black. Should I use brass or alloy version?
There was a day I only built with aluminum nipples figuring there would never be a problem using the highest quality available ... Wheelsmith and DT.

Then I started restoring vintage bikes and saw the error of my thinking ... I won't ever build with aluminum nipples again because they fatigue and break over time. Oh And they galvanically corrode to the steel spoke like a reverse frozen seatpost. But since they are easy to break you can replace them.
But it's several years out so if you keep that in mind they only offer a weight savings. I only use 4sided spoke wrenches on square nipples.

What a reverseal for me... Now I toss the aluminum nipples and buy (or get them free) brass nipples.

(I'm a secret closet fan of Shimano wheels with aluminum nipples at the hub with straight pull aero spokes and deepish dish rims, call me a hypocrite)


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