Bicycle Mechanics Broken bottom bracket? Tacoed wheel? If you're having problems with your bicycle, or just need help fixing a flat, drop in here for the latest on bicycle mechanics & bicycle maintenance.

Best Spoke Source

Old 05-24-19, 03:07 PM
  #1  
WizardOfBoz
Generally bewildered
Thread Starter
 
WizardOfBoz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Eastern PA, USA
Posts: 1,769

Bikes: 2014 Trek Domane 6.9, 1999 LeMond Zurich, 1978 Schwinn Superior

Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 607 Post(s)
Liked 8 Times in 7 Posts
Best Spoke Source

Where can one buy spokes at good prices (I asked this in a question buried in another thread, re-asking here)?

With all the talk of hyper-optimized uber-spokes made from the most expensive form of unobtainium alloy, you'd think that there'd be a favorite source or sources for these things. Instead, each website I visit has a limited number of models from a limited number of brands in a limited number of sizes. I think that Sapim and DT Swiss are very poorly served by the folks selling their products on-line.

The super-spoke I'm looking at is a Sapim D-Light in 308mm length (I think, I have to triple check that length and will probably need different spokes for the rear, but this gives you an approximate size). These match the dimensions (2mm/1.65mm) of a 27 inch wheel on my Schwinn Superior. But I also have my eye on a couple of DT Swiss spokes, but these are either thicker (2/1.8mm) or thinner (2/1.5mm). I can find them up to 300mm, but no larger. And the mfrs sites both say that they are made up to 310mm.

Each of these costs a bit more than a buck a spoke, with a nipple. I'm included to go for one of these as this is my first wheel-building project and I don't want to have to worry about spoke quality. I also note that the original spokes are corroding (which is why I'm doing this in the first place) and that modern chrome plating is likely not to the same quality level that Schwinn insisted upon.

That said, spending nearly a hundred bucks on spokes (36 hole hubs/rims) is a little ridiculous. So I went looking for 2/1.65mm butted steel chrome-plated spokes. I can't find them! Or anything like them!

So, is there a site that offers the full range of DT-Swiss and/or Sapim? And what about a site that sells chrome-plated steel butted spokes? Thanks.
WizardOfBoz is offline  
Old 05-24-19, 03:35 PM
  #2  
DiabloScott
It's MY mountain
 
DiabloScott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Mt.Diablo
Posts: 8,574

Bikes: Klein, Merckx, Trek

Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2154 Post(s)
Liked 17 Times in 9 Posts
Wheelbuilder.com gets a lot of favorable posts here - and I can vouch for them as well.
And they do have Sapim double butted in 310 length for $0.98 including brass nipples.
They have a nice selection of DT and Sapim and that's all.
But $1/spoke with nipple is not expensive for good stuff and it's really cheap for über stuff.

Pricing for my last build (DT Competition):


There is a guy that gets recommended in here sometimes that cuts spokes to order - that might be what you need to do. I don't remember his name or site.

Last edited by DiabloScott; 05-24-19 at 03:42 PM.
DiabloScott is online now  
Old 05-24-19, 04:55 PM
  #3  
Dan Burkhart 
Senior member
 
Dan Burkhart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Oakville Ontario
Posts: 7,257
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 526 Post(s)
Liked 10 Times in 7 Posts
Originally Posted by WizardOfBoz View Post
Where can one buy spokes at good prices (I asked this in a question buried in another thread, re-asking here)?

With all the talk of hyper-optimized uber-spokes made from the most expensive form of unobtainium alloy, you'd think that there'd be a favorite source or sources for these things. Instead, each website I visit has a limited number of models from a limited number of brands in a limited number of sizes. I think that Sapim and DT Swiss are very poorly served by the folks selling their products on-line.

The super-spoke I'm looking at is a Sapim D-Light in 308mm length (I think, I have to triple check that length and will probably need different spokes for the rear, but this gives you an approximate size). These match the dimensions (2mm/1.65mm) of a 27 inch wheel on my Schwinn Superior. But I also have my eye on a couple of DT Swiss spokes, but these are either thicker (2/1.8mm) or thinner (2/1.5mm). I can find them up to 300mm, but no larger. And the mfrs sites both say that they are made up to 310mm.

Each of these costs a bit more than a buck a spoke, with a nipple. I'm included to go for one of these as this is my first wheel-building project and I don't want to have to worry about spoke quality. I also note that the original spokes are corroding (which is why I'm doing this in the first place) and that modern chrome plating is likely not to the same quality level that Schwinn insisted upon.

That said, spending nearly a hundred bucks on spokes (36 hole hubs/rims) is a little ridiculous. So I went looking for 2/1.65mm butted steel chrome-plated spokes. I can't find them! Or anything like them!

So, is there a site that offers the full range of DT-Swiss and/or Sapim? And what about a site that sells chrome-plated steel butted spokes? Thanks.
I'm not here to address your supply issue as I get mine wholesale, but just a comment about the D light spokes. Nothing wrong with them, but just be aware that there is no room to shorten them if you get the length wrong. Spokes such as Sapim Race or DT Competition have a bit of room to shorten before hitting the butted section. D Lights transition directly to 1.7mm at the end of the thread. You can thread the nipple all the way over the threads and slide it down the shaft of the spoke.
Dan Burkhart is online now  
Old 05-24-19, 04:57 PM
  #4  
Jon T
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: West Orange County, CA
Posts: 962

Bikes: '84 Peugeot PH10LE

Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 340 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 9 Times in 4 Posts
Yojimbosgarage.com. i just bought 40 spokes from him (36 plus spares). Cut to size and threaded. 20 Sapim "strong" and 20 Sapim "force" for my 35 year old rear wheel. The "strong" are on the DS and the "force" are on the NDS. Made a very nice and robust wheel. Marco was easy to work with and knows his trade.
Oh, yah. All 40 spokes and shipping was only $36 and change.
Jon
Jon T is offline  
Old 05-24-19, 05:03 PM
  #5  
Nessism
Senior Member
 
Nessism's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 2,711

Bikes: Homebuilt steel

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 127 Post(s)
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Bikehubstore.com is a great source. They can cut down and thread spokes to any length you may need if they don't have the native size. Great guys to work with too. I'd forget about chrome plated carbon steel spokes. Don't think they even exit. Stainless steel is the defacto standard for high grade spokes and zinc plated straight gauge for Walmart bikes.
Nessism is offline  
Old 05-24-19, 05:28 PM
  #6  
Gresp15C
Senior Member
 
Gresp15C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 2,602
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 610 Post(s)
Liked 13 Times in 10 Posts
I've been happy with Dan's Comp.
Gresp15C is offline  
Old 05-24-19, 08:25 PM
  #7  
jideta 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Honolulu
Posts: 78
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked 37 Times in 23 Posts
2nd Yojimbos
Broke a CXray and he was the least expensive.
jideta is offline  
Old 05-24-19, 08:43 PM
  #8  
ridingfool
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 182
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 54 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times in 6 Posts
try modern bike bought some spokes last year from them . And they seemed reasonable prices.
ridingfool is offline  
Old 05-24-19, 08:47 PM
  #9  
cyccommute 
Mad bike riding scientist
 
cyccommute's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 21,273

Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, an orange one and a few titanium ones

Mentioned: 91 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2405 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 78 Times in 55 Posts
Originally Posted by WizardOfBoz View Post
Where can one buy spokes at good prices (I asked this in a question buried in another thread, re-asking here)?

With all the talk of hyper-optimized uber-spokes made from the most expensive form of unobtainium alloy, you'd think that there'd be a favorite source or sources for these things. Instead, each website I visit has a limited number of models from a limited number of brands in a limited number of sizes. I think that Sapim and DT Swiss are very poorly served by the folks selling their products on-line.

The super-spoke I'm looking at is a Sapim D-Light in 308mm length (I think, I have to triple check that length and will probably need different spokes for the rear, but this gives you an approximate size). These match the dimensions (2mm/1.65mm) of a 27 inch wheel on my Schwinn Superior. But I also have my eye on a couple of DT Swiss spokes, but these are either thicker (2/1.8mm) or thinner (2/1.5mm). I can find them up to 300mm, but no larger. And the mfrs sites both say that they are made up to 310mm.

Each of these costs a bit more than a buck a spoke, with a nipple. I'm included to go for one of these as this is my first wheel-building project and I don't want to have to worry about spoke quality. I also note that the original spokes are corroding (which is why I'm doing this in the first place) and that modern chrome plating is likely not to the same quality level that Schwinn insisted upon.

That said, spending nearly a hundred bucks on spokes (36 hole hubs/rims) is a little ridiculous. So I went looking for 2/1.65mm butted steel chrome-plated spokes. I can't find them! Or anything like them!

So, is there a site that offers the full range of DT-Swiss and/or Sapim? And what about a site that sells chrome-plated steel butted spokes? Thanks.
Pillar is another spoke to consider. You can get triple butted PSR2015 from Bdop for about $0.90 each. You can also get DT Swiss from Rose Bikes for about $0.50 each. That’s cheaper than wholesale in the US. You will have to pay for shipping which can make it a wash in terms of cost, however.
__________________
Stuart Black
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Days of Wineless Roads. Bed and Breakfasting along the KATY
Twisting Down the Alley. Misadventures in tornado alley.
An Good Ol' Fashion Appalachian Butt Whoopin'.
cyccommute is offline  
Old 05-24-19, 08:59 PM
  #10  
le mans
Steel is real
 
le mans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Australia
Posts: 598

Bikes: Cannondale Saeco Machhine De Caffe. Custom - Record Vortex 8 spd Nexus & Mistral Le Mans 3 spd Shimano. Upgraded Wheeler Crossline

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 94 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I found a local wheel building business selling 36 standard stainless steel spoke lots for $19 (aussie), suits me to a tee
Asks more on ebay due to postage costs
le mans is offline  
Old 05-25-19, 04:27 PM
  #11  
WizardOfBoz
Generally bewildered
Thread Starter
 
WizardOfBoz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Eastern PA, USA
Posts: 1,769

Bikes: 2014 Trek Domane 6.9, 1999 LeMond Zurich, 1978 Schwinn Superior

Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 607 Post(s)
Liked 8 Times in 7 Posts
Thanks to folks for your help. As mentioned, the original spokes were 2/1.65 butted. I was looking at D-Light because that's the exact dimension that they advertise, and I couldn't find any other spoke that was dimensionally conformal.

I emailed WheelBuilder.com and asked about D-Light spokes, which they don't stock. They indicated that they might be able to order a small (two wheel) quantity but possibly would have to order mass quantities. Thought those reading this would like to know that Wheelbuilder was willing to ask about this.

Originally Posted by Dan Burkhart View Post
... just a comment about the D light spokes. Nothing wrong with them, but just be aware that there is no room to shorten them if you get the length wrong. Spokes such as Sapim Race or DT Competition have a bit of room to shorten...
Good info from (an obvious!) expert. Thanks, Dan. This limitation may be why the spoke is not stocked.

One update: Upon looking at this, the DT Swiss site notes that the longest DT Swiss Competition spokes are 300mm
So the choices are:
DT Swiss Revolution (2.0/1.5mm, available up to 309 mm, and apparently have the same short swage distance as the D-Lights )
Sapim Race (2.0/1.8, 310mm)
Sapim D-Light (2.0/1.65, 310mm)
Sapim Laser (2.0/1.5), 310mm)

The Race and Competition are both 2.0/1.8 which I may just accept as close enough. I'm going out to the garage to pull the wheels and to carefully measure front, and rear DS/NDS lengths. Then I will order. BTW, Sapim Lasers are 2/1.5. Given the progress in steels and drawing technology, I'm guessing that would probably suffice especially given that I'm going to replicate the original 4-cross lacing. But its only about 35 grams difference (between the 1.8 and 1.5mm center section diameter).
I'm leaning towards the Revolution or Race, whichever is cheapest.


This is interesting.
WizardOfBoz is offline  
Old 05-25-19, 05:22 PM
  #12  
Mad Honk 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Bloomington, IN
Posts: 64

Bikes: Trek 770, Trek 760, Schwinn Peloton, Patelli Professional, Othon Ochsner

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Wiz,
How long do you want these wheels to last? Ten years? longer? And I ask because plated steel will last at least ten years, just like your old spokes.
JB imports will likely have boxes of 12 1/8" spokes in quantities of 144 spokes for close to $18.50. That's enough for four wheels, and if done right you won't have to spend extra $ for the drive side spokes on the rear. If you are looking for cheap that is the way to go.

BTW use a single gauge spoke for the rebuild. Double butting does nothing for a four cross pattern other than make it even softer and even less responsive to ride. Smiles, MH

Last edited by Mad Honk; 05-25-19 at 05:26 PM. Reason: correction
Mad Honk is offline  
Old 05-26-19, 09:21 AM
  #13  
WizardOfBoz
Generally bewildered
Thread Starter
 
WizardOfBoz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Eastern PA, USA
Posts: 1,769

Bikes: 2014 Trek Domane 6.9, 1999 LeMond Zurich, 1978 Schwinn Superior

Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 607 Post(s)
Liked 8 Times in 7 Posts
Originally Posted by Mad Honk View Post
Wiz, How long do you want these wheels to last? Ten years? longer?
Well, Honk, I'd be happy if I last another ten years or so, riding bikes. I would like to do this once and not worry about having to re-do spokes.

Originally Posted by Mad Honk View Post
And I ask because plated steel will last at least ten years, just like your old spokes.
The spokes on the bike have lasted 40 years! I'm pretty sure that spoke metalworking and plating vary from 1978 Some mfrs today are better, some worse I suspect. For the expensive high-end European spokes I think probably both are usually better. For the six cent per spoke Chinese race-you-to-the-bottom-price-and-quality, no. And there's some high-quality Chinese (or at least Taiwanese - Pillar being one) spokes, too. IIRC from my time in the bike shop, Schwinn's chrome plating was much, much thicker than any competitive manufacturer of their time. Not sure if this went for spokes, too, but I suspect that no manufacturer today matches the thickness spec that Schwinn used.

Originally Posted by Mad Honk View Post
JB imports will likely have boxes of 12 1/8" spokes in quantities of 144 spokes for close to $18.50. That's enough for four wheels, and if done right you won't have to spend extra $ for the drive side spokes on the rear. If you are looking for cheap that is the way to go.
This is the frustrating thing. I've searched for JB and found https://www.jbbicyclewheels.com/. Is this it? This site causes my browser to throw a security exception. I make my living with my computer. I think that the site is probably fine, but there's no way I'm opening a flagged site on my computer. And even if I did, there's no way I'd order online with a credit card. Grrrr.

My impression of the efficiency of online spoke retailing is very low. Each site offers a very arbitrary (black but not silver, offering up to 300mm when the mfr makes the spoke up to 310mm, offering only one or two spoke types when the mfr offers dozens) subset of the mfr's range. The retailers reflect very poorly on the manufactuers. For example, I looked up Pillar spokes (recommended above). They look to be high quality. The Double Butted PDB1416 would match the OEM dimensions exactly. But one retailer, Bike Hub Store offers two Pillar models, none of which are the butted variety. A European retailer, bikeonlineshop, doesn't offer the PDB1416 (14 and 16 guage, or 2mm and 1.65). They DO offer PDB14115 (2mm/1.8mm). Ok, great. But while the mfr offers this spoke in lengths up to 310mm, this retailer only offers up to 264mm. Some mfr/distributors (Wheelsmith) don't even list length available. This type of incomplete listings and partial offering end up requiring back and forth communication. For a flippin' spoke. Spokes arent' rocket surgery, and I should have been able to order the spokes I want ten times over by now. Double GRRR.

Online spoke retailing seems to me to be at a quality/sophistication level reminiscent of online retailing from the mid 1990s. So bad, it's kept me from ordering anything. [/RANT]

Originally Posted by Mad Honk View Post
BTW use a single gauge spoke for the rebuild. Double butting does nothing for a four cross pattern other than make it even softer and even less responsive to ride. Smiles, MH
This is an interesting point and would seem to agree with what I've read elsewhere. One CF rim maker uses 2 cross as standard, with 3 cross for heavy riders (see https://www.noxcomposites.com/wheel_building - its interesting). While this is for CF rims that are inherently stiff, I suspect that the difference in ride between 3 and 4 cross is not huge on my rims is not huge. Laterally, the difference in spring constant will be attenuated by the flexibility of the tire. But I weight 240#, and (at least when I was younger) I could really graunch on the cranks (I usually maxed out the leg-press machines in the gym). Can't do this today, but I still would probably prefer a little stiffer wheel.

I think for the front wheel I'll try to match the OEM specs (14/16 guage, or 2mm/1.65mm). For the rear there's some interesting stuff I could do. For example, using straight guage on the DS, and butted on the NDS. Or 14/15 (2/1.8) on one side and 14/16 (2/1.65) on the other.

I know I'm going crazy on a mid-tier wheel build, but this is also a learning exercise, and a bit of fun. Off to pull the wheels and get that final measurement that I've been promising to get.
WizardOfBoz is offline  
Old 05-26-19, 09:41 AM
  #14  
Andrew R Stewart 
Senior Member
 
Andrew R Stewart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 11,546

Bikes: Stewart S&S coupled sport tourer, Stewart Sunday light, Stewart Commuting, Stewart Touring, Co Motion Tandem, Stewart 3-Spd, Stewart Track, Fuji Finest, Raleigh Pro, Trek Cycle Cross, Mongoose tomac ATB, GT Bravado ATB, JCP Folder

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1695 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 23 Times in 20 Posts
Butted spokes are more about long term wheel reliability then weight or aero. By having more stretch in the spoke the window between a fully tensioned spoke and a untensioned spoke is greater. One way spokes fail is to be loose enough to flex over a large range and thus fatigue crack sooner then if kept tight. A spoke that doesn't meet it's loose state from rim loads (bumps, lateral stresses, etc.) won't get loose enough to flex as much as a stiffer spoke.

More spoke crosses will distribute the spoke tension further about the hub and in a manor that allows more flange material to brace against the spoke tensions. The classic broken spoke flange with radial laced spokes is an example of this not being paid attention to.

10 PSI of difference in a tire will have far more effect then a butted or straight gage choice will have.

Modern stainless steel spokes are not plated. They are consistent through and through. Interesting that back when "men were men" the SS spokes weren't as strong as carbon steel spokes were, the SS materials then were not as well alloyed as todays are.

Before buying spokes of a spec length do untension the rims and check out the rims' natural (with no spoke tensions pulling the rim straight) condition. If the rims have much hop or lateral run out reconsider rebuilding with the rims.

But it's your wheel and only my experienced opinion. Andy
__________________
AndrewRStewart
Andrew R Stewart is offline  
Old 05-26-19, 10:41 AM
  #15  
FBOATSB 
Senior Member
 
FBOATSB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Central Indiana
Posts: 1,531

Bikes: Old Schwinns

Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 552 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by WizardOfBoz View Post
Where can one buy spokes at good prices (I asked this in a question buried in another thread, re-asking here)?

With all the talk of hyper-optimized uber-spokes made from the most expensive form of unobtainium alloy, you'd think that there'd be a favorite source or sources for these things. Instead, each website I visit has a limited number of models from a limited number of brands in a limited number of sizes. I think that Sapim and DT Swiss are very poorly served by the folks selling their products on-line.

The super-spoke I'm looking at is a Sapim D-Light in 308mm length (I think, I have to triple check that length and will probably need different spokes for the rear, but this gives you an approximate size). These match the dimensions (2mm/1.65mm) of a 27 inch wheel on my Schwinn Superior. But I also have my eye on a couple of DT Swiss spokes, but these are either thicker (2/1.8mm) or thinner (2/1.5mm). I can find them up to 300mm, but no larger. And the mfrs sites both say that they are made up to 310mm.

Each of these costs a bit more than a buck a spoke, with a nipple. I'm included to go for one of these as this is my first wheel-building project and I don't want to have to worry about spoke quality. I also note that the original spokes are corroding (which is why I'm doing this in the first place) and that modern chrome plating is likely not to the same quality level that Schwinn insisted upon.

That said, spending nearly a hundred bucks on spokes (36 hole hubs/rims) is a little ridiculous. So I went looking for 2/1.65mm butted steel chrome-plated spokes. I can't find them! Or anything like them!

So, is there a site that offers the full range of DT-Swiss and/or Sapim? And what about a site that sells chrome-plated steel butted spokes? Thanks.
Did you see this thread?
What's your source for spokes?
Lots of recommendations for Danscomp in there. But you have to call them. Their phone number is right at the top of their homepage. In my limited experience, I've never seen a spoke break anywhere but in the elbow. I've been buying Sapim Strong spokes and have not had one fail. That's from 350 pounds down to 280 currently.
FBOATSB is offline  
Old 05-26-19, 03:23 PM
  #16  
samkl 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 268

Bikes: 2004 Trek 520, 1990 Miyata 1000, 1987 Cannondale SR400 AKA Prairie Chicken, 2017 Xootr Swift

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 116 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 1 Post
Third Yojimbo’s.
samkl is offline  
Old 05-27-19, 10:02 AM
  #17  
WizardOfBoz
Generally bewildered
Thread Starter
 
WizardOfBoz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Eastern PA, USA
Posts: 1,769

Bikes: 2014 Trek Domane 6.9, 1999 LeMond Zurich, 1978 Schwinn Superior

Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 607 Post(s)
Liked 8 Times in 7 Posts
Thanks to all for suggestions on vendor, and on tips.

Especially appreciate experts (each with their own viewpoint no doubt) such as A Stewart, Retro Grouch, Thermionic Scott, cyccommute, Mad Honk and others. To Andrews point, I obviously have no expertise in wheelbuilding, but I do have a pretty good tech and bike (engineering degrees and bike shop experience) background, so when things are mentioned I think I grok them pretty well. So I appreciate your sharing your expertise.

Summarizing some stuff:
1) There are lots of recommended vendors, with Yohimbo's Garage and Dan's Comp being mentioned a lot.
2) Many mentioned that I should remove the rims from the hubs and check flatness and roundness.
3) It was pointed out that buying a whole wheel might be cheaper in most cases. (But I want this to be close to "stock")

Some more technical stuff.
1) The issue with butted vs straight gauge spokes is interesting. Andrew pointed out a key point: Butting is more for reliability than for weight. Reliability is from
a) Butted spokes will stretch more for the same force. This means butted spokes transmit less force to the the j bend, which is where most spokes break.
b) The amount of stretch from tension in butted spokes is more than for straight guage. So if the wheel is displaced, the butted spoke is more likely to remain under tension.
2) The same "amount of stretch" advantage (1b) accrues to longer spokes. Longer spokes have more stretch length than shorter spokes, given the same tension.
3) The 4 cross approach may be either spongier and less snappy, or more comfortable, depending upon point of view. But a lot of this difference may be irrelevant, as tires soak up a lot of force and dampen things a lot. Perhaps more than the difference between 3 and 4 cross.
4) Another advantage of 4 cross is that the spoke force on the hub rim holes is more tangential and the spokes oppose each other, and this makes it less susceptible to hub hole break.

I tried to think a bit about what others have said, and it seems to me that lateral, radial, and tangential stiffness is going to be proportional to the spoke cross-section, but that much of the road-shock absorbing flexibility is going to be less important than tire effects. The tangential stiffness needed when one stomps on the pedals probably does matter, though. So for comfort and reliability, a butted spoke is favored. For rapid response to graunching down on the pedals, a straight gauge (or less extremely) butted spoke becomes more desirable.

One interesting paradox. I'm a heavy rider. If I hit a bump, the rim will deflect more than it would for a lighter rider. This means I need more initial stretch in my spokes to absorb that deflection without going past the "zero spoke stress" point. So I (the heavy guy) need a butted spoke. But a lighter rider won't need as much pre-stretch and can get away with a straight-gauge spoke! This applies to the likelihood of breaking the spoke at the J-bend, too. The heavy guy is gonna want the thinner spoke section to avoid transmitting a lot of force to the j-bend. A lighter rider will be generating less force and can use a straight gauge! Well, I thought that was interesting.

The last consideration I had was for asymmetric lateral stability in the rear wheel. If you dish the wheel properly, the DS spokes are close to right angles to the wheel axis. The NDS angle is a bit less. A force displacing the rim towards the NDS will meet with less elastic resistance than will a force from NDS toward the DS. My understanding is that most of the force of the freewheel/freehub is transmitted to the rim via the DS spokes, as the thin section of an aluminum hub won't handle much torsion. Both points make an excellent case for asymmetric spoke selection for the rear hub, with thicker DS spokes.

I finally pulled the rear wheel and it has a Normandy freewheel, for which I don't have a tool. I'll be taking this to the bike shop to have them pull it, after which I can disassemble it and measure stuff. BTW, I saw a cool YouTube video in which a guy took a castellated nut for a 5/8" thread. The nut corners match up to the Normandy freewheel splines! You put the nut in, and use the slots in the castle (with a piece of flat steel) to twist the thing. Cool to know in an emergency.

In any case I think I'm going to try to match the OEM spokes on the front wheel. Butted, cuz I'm a big guy. 4 cross, to avoid hub hole pullout and for comfort (the wheels are very comfortable to ride right now). I'll use butted on the rear hub, but I'm going to use the different angles on the DS and NDS hub sides to figure out a good ratio of spoke cross sections. Will report back.
WizardOfBoz is offline  
Old 06-02-19, 09:39 AM
  #18  
WizardOfBoz
Generally bewildered
Thread Starter
 
WizardOfBoz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Eastern PA, USA
Posts: 1,769

Bikes: 2014 Trek Domane 6.9, 1999 LeMond Zurich, 1978 Schwinn Superior

Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 607 Post(s)
Liked 8 Times in 7 Posts
So I took apart the wheels and measured the spokes.

36 308mm spokes on the front.
18 308mm spokes on the rear NDS.
17 306mm spokes on the rear DS, and
1 303 mm spoke on the rear DS (how did THAT get in there?)

Still trying to find one source that will sell me a combo of 2/1.65/2mm for the front and NDS, and 2/1.8/2mm for the rear, in the correct size.

I'll be reaching out to DansComp and Yohimbo on Monday to see if they can get the spokes (Sapim Race and D-Light, or DT Swiss Competition and Competition Race) I want.

Last edited by WizardOfBoz; 06-02-19 at 09:45 AM.
WizardOfBoz is offline  
Old 06-02-19, 09:47 AM
  #19  
Retro Grouch 
Senior Member
 
Retro Grouch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: St Peters, Missouri
Posts: 29,247

Bikes: Catrike 559 I own some others but they don't get ridden very much.

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1141 Post(s)
Liked 18 Times in 14 Posts
Originally Posted by WizardOfBoz View Post
I couldn't find any other spoke that was dimensionally conformal.
Another vote for Dan's Comp. Cheap, fast service and they will sell you the exact quantity that you want cut to the exact length that you need. Can't order spokes online. You need to call on the telephone and talk directly to their spoke guy.
__________________
My greatest fear is all of my kids standing around my coffin and talking about "how sensible" dad was.
Retro Grouch is offline  
Old 06-02-19, 11:03 AM
  #20  
scarlson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Medford MA
Posts: 97

Bikes: Ron Cooper touring, 1959 Jack Taylor 650b super touring tandem, Vitus 979, Joe Bell painted Claud Butler Dalesman, Colin Laing curved tube tandem

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by Jon T View Post
Yojimbosgarage.com. i just bought 40 spokes from him (36 plus spares). Cut to size and threaded. 20 Sapim "strong" and 20 Sapim "force" for my 35 year old rear wheel. The "strong" are on the DS and the "force" are on the NDS. Made a very nice and robust wheel. Marco was easy to work with and knows his trade.
Oh, yah. All 40 spokes and shipping was only $36 and change.
Jon
+1 for Yojimbo's garage! That guy is amazing. I've ordered from him, hmm, twice? Three times? Never a complaint, always spot-on and was the cheapest I could find.
scarlson is offline  
Old 06-02-19, 01:16 PM
  #21  
WizardOfBoz
Generally bewildered
Thread Starter
 
WizardOfBoz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Eastern PA, USA
Posts: 1,769

Bikes: 2014 Trek Domane 6.9, 1999 LeMond Zurich, 1978 Schwinn Superior

Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 607 Post(s)
Liked 8 Times in 7 Posts
Thanks, Retro. (better than "Thanks, Grouch", I guess!)

I've read your bike blog and put stock in what you say. I'll check them out tomorrow.

Folks that enjoy discussions here may enjoy RetroGrouch Bike Blog. Recommended.

Also thanks to scarlson and others.
WizardOfBoz is offline  
Old 06-02-19, 03:12 PM
  #22  
migrantwing
Senior Member
 
migrantwing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 492

Bikes: '07 Carrera TDF / 2011 Ghost Race Actinum 5000

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 44 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
Pillar is another spoke to consider. You can get triple butted PSR2015 from Bdop for about $0.90 each. You can also get DT Swiss from Rose Bikes for about $0.50 each. That’s cheaper than wholesale in the US. You will have to pay for shipping which can make it a wash in terms of cost, however.

+1 for Pillar.
migrantwing is offline  
Old 06-02-19, 04:03 PM
  #23  
WizardOfBoz
Generally bewildered
Thread Starter
 
WizardOfBoz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Eastern PA, USA
Posts: 1,769

Bikes: 2014 Trek Domane 6.9, 1999 LeMond Zurich, 1978 Schwinn Superior

Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 607 Post(s)
Liked 8 Times in 7 Posts
Originally Posted by migrantwing View Post
+1 for Pillar.
I'd be happy to consider Pillar, but I would need their PDB1416 and PDB 1415 models. I can't find any retailers offering the 1416 variant.
WizardOfBoz is offline  
Old 06-04-19, 09:24 AM
  #24  
WizardOfBoz
Generally bewildered
Thread Starter
 
WizardOfBoz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Eastern PA, USA
Posts: 1,769

Bikes: 2014 Trek Domane 6.9, 1999 LeMond Zurich, 1978 Schwinn Superior

Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 607 Post(s)
Liked 8 Times in 7 Posts
Pulled the trigger on Sapim D-Light (front, NDS) and Competition Race (rear DS). The D-Light have the same 2/1.65/2 dimensions as the OEM. I'm a little concerned about the short threading length but as long as the spoke threads in so that the top is flush with the spoke top, I'll be ok and should have some spare room.
Ordered 308mm for the front and rear NDS, 306 for the rear DS. Same as original. Will report back.
WizardOfBoz is offline  
Old 06-05-19, 04:04 PM
  #25  
Retro Grouch 
Senior Member
 
Retro Grouch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: St Peters, Missouri
Posts: 29,247

Bikes: Catrike 559 I own some others but they don't get ridden very much.

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1141 Post(s)
Liked 18 Times in 14 Posts
Originally Posted by WizardOfBoz View Post
Thanks, Retro. (better than "Thanks, Grouch", I guess!)

I've read your bike blog and put stock in what you say. I'll check them out tomorrow.

Folks that enjoy discussions here may enjoy RetroGrouch Bike Blog. Recommended.

Also thanks to scarlson and others.
You're welcome only that blog isn't me.
__________________
My greatest fear is all of my kids standing around my coffin and talking about "how sensible" dad was.
Retro Grouch is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.