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9sp Compatibility with 10sp?

Old 07-09-19, 05:17 AM
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9sp Compatibility with 10sp?

As we all know, our beloved component manufacturers are trying to steer the world away from 3x cranks into 1x and compact 2x cranks. This is not a bright future for touring bikes. Some people like myself would like the ability to have a ten speed cassette, married to a 3x crankset. Is it possible to get this without a lot of fuss? In the past, my attempts at building a touring setup has been hit and miss. I'm thinking I would benefit from using the Sugino XD-350 Crankset but its for a 9sp. Could I use a crankset that says its for 8/9sp with a 10sp cassette and derailleur? Or will I need to go strictly 9sp to get what I want?

I could really use some advice from the collective here. Help!

I actually just found this article and I may try it.
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Old 07-09-19, 05:49 AM
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I would think that running your Sugino crank in a 3 x 10 setup should not be a problem.

Are you wanting the triple front derailleur to index? Which shifters are you using? Shimano had many triple crank offerings during the 10 speed years. I think Ultegra 6603/6600 stuff is really great but there are many other options too. I’m not sure if the 6603 front derailleur would index perfectly with your chainring combinations on your Sugino crank though, they’re optimized for one set combo of ratios such as 52/39/30, 53/42/30 something like that. There was a Shimano triple that came in like a 50/38/28 or something like that such as a Sora or 105. Your Sugino crank might be considered a “Trekking” crank and I’m pretty sure you could also spec a trekking or hybrid or cyclocross front derailleur with it and it would work fine.
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Old 07-09-19, 06:24 AM
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That crank will work fine with 10 speed, but masi61 makes a good point about indexed FD shifting. Pretty much anything can be made to work with friction FD shifting- bar end or down tube- but indexed with STI is trickier once you get away from the exact FD and chainring sizes they were made to work with.

I've also had great success with the Shimano CX50 and CX70 FD's shifting triples with friction.
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Old 07-09-19, 06:56 AM
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I have four bikes, all 10-speed cassettes used with triple cranks so it certainly could be done, at least in the past.

The most suitable triple road crank was the Shimano FC-5703 105-level HTII model. It came geared 50/39/30 but had a separate 74 mm granny bolt circle so you could (and I did) replace the 30T granny with a 26 or 24 T chainring. The Tiagra FC-4603 was also a 50/39/30 triple but the granny ring was bolted to the middle chainring and 30T was the smallest that would fit. These are no longer in production so you have to find them used or NOS. Shimano still offers 3x10 cranks in their Trekking groups but these are typically available only from European dealers. Here is one example: https://www.bike24.com/p2224136.html

Shimano and Campy have pretty much abandoned triple cranks for their current road groups and SRAM never made one. Even their MTB groups have few triple cranks available. The current "craze" is double or single cranks paired with wide or super wide ratio cassettes. You can get a real low low and high high gear with these at the expense of big gearing gaps in the middle. Otherwise Suguino triples are you best choice.

The other problem is finding triple indexing front brifters. Campy and Shimano made 10-speed compatible triple front shifters and front derailleurs but none of their current 11+-speed groups offer them and they may not work well with other make cranks. One excellent work-around is friction front shifting via bar-end levers or Gevenalle brake lever mounted shifters. I have the Gevenalle shifters on all my bikes and find them very easy to use, versatile and reliable.
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Old 07-09-19, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by HillRider View Post
I have four bikes, all 10-speed cassettes used with triple cranks so it certainly could be done, at least in the past.

The most suitable triple road crank was the Shimano FC-5703 105-level HTII model. It came geared 50/39/30 but had a separate 74 mm granny bolt circle so you could (and I did) replace the 30T granny with a 26 or 24 T chainring. The Tiagra FC-4603 was also a 50/39/30 triple but the granny ring was bolted to the middle chainring and 30T was the smallest that would fit. These are no longer in production so you have to find them used or NOS. Shimano still offers 3x10 cranks in their Trekking groups but these are typically available only from European dealers. Here is one example: https://www.bike24.com/p2224136.html

Shimano and Campy have pretty much abandoned triple cranks for their current road groups and SRAM never made one. Even their MTB groups have few triple cranks available. The current "craze" is double or single cranks paired with wide or super wide ratio cassettes. You can get a real low low and high high gear with these at the expense of big gearing gaps in the middle. Otherwise Suguino triples are you best choice.

The other problem is finding triple indexing front brifters. Campy and Shimano made 10-speed compatible triple front shifters and front derailleurs but none of their current 11+-speed groups offer them and they may not work well with other make cranks. One excellent work-around is friction front shifting via bar-end levers or Gevenalle brake lever mounted shifters. I have the Gevenalle shifters on all my bikes and find them very easy to use, versatile and reliable.
Thanks, Hillrider.

I'm thinking that Gevenalle shifters, Sugino crank, and 10sp driveline is how I'll go. Do you have any recommendations on how big of a cassette that I can run with this setup? I'm probably going to use a road RD and FD, possibly with a goatlink. Do you think this'll work?
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Old 07-09-19, 08:27 AM
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The limit on the biggest cassette you can use is obviously defined by your rear derailleur. Most Shimano 10-speed road rds have a 30T big cog limit but will accept a 32T in most applications. Any Shimano 9-speed MTB rd will index properly with 10-speed shifters and they will take a 34T or slightly larger cog. They will also "wrap up" a lot of chain so you can use wide ratio cassettes and triple crank and are really better than a road rd plus a goatlink.

The best thing about the Gevenalle shifters is the front is friction and very agnostic about the crank and front derailleur you choose.

A 26x34 gear is a 20.6 gear-inch low and 24x34 is 19 gear-inches and either is probably enough for most touring riders.
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Old 07-10-19, 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted by NoControl View Post
As we all know, our beloved component manufacturers are trying to steer the world away from 3x cranks into 1x and compact 2x cranks. This is not a bright future for touring bikes.

Triple cranks are obsolete for a reason.

Zero purpose for them now that we have wide range rear cassettes and a billion 2x and 1x drivetrains.

Why do you think MTBs are pretty much devoid of triples?

Because they suck, are irrelevant and are useless.
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Old 07-11-19, 12:52 AM
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However retrogrouch this may sound, most changes are for the money making - marketing reasons. "Added value" if you like.

One of the things I like about triples is the ability to use dirt cheap 7 speed cassettes and chains, along with friction shifting. I use it every day, not just "for touring". Dirt cheap AND robust.

For the OP - the setup should work fine.
Largest rear sprocket?
I've used Shimano Sora and Claris with as big as 34 teeth (I think factory recommendation is 32 max). Sora was SS (short cage) at that - lacked on the chain wrap capacity, had to stay away from the small-small combos (which should always be the case anyway), while Claris one worked with no problems. They are both compatible with the pre-Tiagra 4700 10 speed Shimano shifters/derailleurs. For the same (pre 4700 era), you could use any Shimano MTB RD, that is for 9, or fewer speeds (10 and 11 speed ones have different cable pull standards).
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Old 07-11-19, 04:47 AM
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Originally Posted by operator View Post
Triple cranks are obsolete for a reason.

Zero purpose for them now that we have wide range rear cassettes and a billion 2x and 1x drivetrains.

Why do you think MTBs are pretty much devoid of triples?

Because they suck, are irrelevant and are useless.
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Old 07-11-19, 04:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Bike Gremlin View Post
However retrogrouch this may sound, most changes are for the money making - marketing reasons. "Added value" if you like.

One of the things I like about triples is the ability to use dirt cheap 7 speed cassettes and chains, along with friction shifting. I use it every day, not just "for touring". Dirt cheap AND robust.

For the OP - the setup should work fine.
Largest rear sprocket?
I've used Shimano Sora and Claris with as big as 34 teeth (I think factory recommendation is 32 max). Sora was SS (short cage) at that - lacked on the chain wrap capacity, had to stay away from the small-small combos (which should always be the case anyway), while Claris one worked with no problems. They are both compatible with the pre-Tiagra 4700 10 speed Shimano shifters/derailleurs. For the same (pre 4700 era), you could use any Shimano MTB RD, that is for 9, or fewer speeds (10 and 11 speed ones have different cable pull standards).
The frame I'm building up is a Surly Disk Trucker, so anything lower than a 9-speed would be an injustice in my opinion. I'd like to put a Rohloff on it, but I got this bike cheap, and I'll ride it a while and then flip it. I contacted RaceFace to see if they can advise me on what to get. They do still make triples as far as I know. If I can get a decent triple crankset and Brevenalle shifters, then I think the rest will fall into line.
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Old 07-11-19, 05:09 AM
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Originally Posted by NoControl View Post
The frame I'm building up is a Surly Disk Trucker, so anything lower than a 9-speed would be an injustice in my opinion. I'd like to put a Rohloff on it, but I got this bike cheap, and I'll ride it a while and then flip it. I contacted RaceFace to see if they can advise me on what to get. They do still make triples as far as I know. If I can get a decent triple crankset and Brevenalle shifters, then I think the rest will fall into line.
Don't see 7 speeds over 9, especially with a triple and for a "touring" bicycle, as a step down, quite the opposite.
But each should choose by and for themselves.
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Old 07-11-19, 05:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Bike Gremlin View Post
Don't see 7 speeds over 9, especially with a triple and for a "touring" bicycle, as a step down, quite the opposite.
But each should choose by and for themselves.
Oh, I agree wholeheartedly. Its just that I like a wider ratio. No, nothing at all wrong with friction-shifting and 7-8 speeds.
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Old 07-11-19, 06:18 AM
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Originally Posted by operator View Post
Triple cranks are obsolete for a reason.

Zero purpose for them now that we have wide range rear cassettes and a billion 2x and 1x drivetrains.
Yes, the wide range cassettes are available but at the cost of huge gearing gaps. MTB often have to shift under stress and fine tuning the gear choice isn't as important. For road and touring bikes small gearing gaps are a benefit that wide ratio 1X and 2X drivetrains can't provide.
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Old 07-11-19, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by NoControl View Post
Oh, I agree wholeheartedly. Its just that I like a wider ratio. No, nothing at all wrong with friction-shifting and 7-8 speeds.
Sure - whatever you prefer. Just to confirm:
Span of gear ratios (lowest and highest) is the same with 7 and 9 speeds.
With 9 speedd you (only) get 2 more gearing ratios in between the lowest and highest one.
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Old 07-11-19, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by operator View Post
Triple cranks are obsolete for a reason.

Zero purpose for them now that we have wide range rear cassettes and a billion 2x and 1x drivetrains.

Why do you think MTBs are pretty much devoid of triples?

Because they suck, are irrelevant and are useless.
...you have been missed.
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Old 07-12-19, 06:21 PM
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Triple cranks are obsolete for a reason.

Zero purpose for them now that we have wide range rear cassettes and a billion 2x and 1x drivetrains.

Why do you think MTBs are pretty much devoid of triples?

Because they suck, are irrelevant and are useless.
Originally Posted by 3alarmer View Post
...you have been missed.
Man, I was thinkin' just that....
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Old 07-20-19, 01:07 AM
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Originally Posted by dprayvd View Post
Man, I was thinkin' just that....
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Old 07-21-19, 12:42 PM
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I put new 3x10 Deore shifters on my MTB, a 10sp wide cassette and XT derailleur, but left the older 3 ring 7sp crank on. No problems whatsoever until I realized the big ring was shot. I replaced that and no further problems. This is all Shimano, where mostly everything stays compatible.

A 3x7 setup gave you 21 gears and maybe 17 were usable without cross-chaining. A 3x10 gives 30, but I can't remember the last time I went into even the middle ring, never mind the small, and I don't worry about cross-chaining in this setup. A 2x12 gives 24 and there are probably more useful gears available using that than either of the others.
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Old 07-21-19, 01:12 PM
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Fwiw, my Fuji Sportif came with a 9 speed drivetrain and a 10 speed cassette swapped on no problem with the stock RD. I'm running a 10 speed 11-36 cassette on the stock road Tiagra RD..
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Old 07-22-19, 06:32 AM
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For MTB the 10sp derailleur is different, with different pull, something called Dynasys. I believe the cassette spacing is the same as road, but the shifter/derailleur is certainly not the same. It has something to do with chain slap too as the wide ranges would leave a lot of chain hanging, and this system takes care of it to some degree.

For me, since I'm riding in the city with it, it was total overkill but it does work flawlessly after 5 years of using it. It also has a very light touch on the shifter, something that my 7sp did not.
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