Dimple titanium chainstays for more tire clearance?
#1
aka Tom Reingold
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New York, NY, and High Falls, NY, USA
Posts: 40,503
Bikes: 1962 Rudge Sports, 1971 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Raleigh Pro Track, 1974 Raleigh International, 1975 Viscount Fixie, 1982 McLean, 1996 Lemond (Ti), 2002 Burley Zydeco tandem
Mentioned: 511 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7348 Post(s)
Liked 2,470 Times
in
1,435 Posts
Dimple titanium chainstays for more tire clearance?
I have a ~1996 Lemond titanium frame, made for narrow 700c wheels. I have put 650b wheels on it with 38mm tires. I like the way it rides. The tire clearance is very tight, and if I'm not careful, or if the rear wheel goes out of true, the tire rubs the frame. Does it make sense to have a frame builder put some dimples in the chainstays? Would someone even be willing to do this? I don't know much about titanium except that it is tricky to work with.
If this is not a sensible plan, I will probably put 700c wheels back on it and see how I like the harsher ride. Then I might sell the bike and replace it with something that can take wider tires.
If this is not a sensible plan, I will probably put 700c wheels back on it and see how I like the harsher ride. Then I might sell the bike and replace it with something that can take wider tires.
__________________
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
#2
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 33,656
Bikes: '96 Litespeed Catalyst, '05 Litespeed Firenze, '06 Litespeed Tuscany, '20 Surly Midnight Special, All are 3x10. It is hilly around here!
Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2026 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1,096 Times
in
742 Posts
Back in 1996 road bike designers certainly weren't thinking about wider tires than 700x23 or so. My '96 Litespeed also won't take tires wider than 23. For that matter my 2006 Litespeed won't either. Road frames for wide tires are a recent development.
I'd be very leery about dimpling the chainstays. The tubing is thin and reducing the width could be a failure point. Chainstays designed with clearance dimples for wide tires have extra width and thickness to retain the needed strength. Ask a frame builder but I'd be surprised if he/she thought it was a good idea.
I'd be very leery about dimpling the chainstays. The tubing is thin and reducing the width could be a failure point. Chainstays designed with clearance dimples for wide tires have extra width and thickness to retain the needed strength. Ask a frame builder but I'd be surprised if he/she thought it was a good idea.
#3
Half way there
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 2,957
Bikes: Many, and the list changes frequently
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 986 Post(s)
Liked 880 Times
in
527 Posts
I've added dimples to steel frames, which is fairly easy and low drama. I'm not sure that I'd try it with Ti in fear of causing some work hardening. How much more clearance do you need? If not much, perhaps flattening the chainstays a bit would get you just enough (2-3mm). Also not sure that dimpling or flattening Ti would be easy on a finished frame.
Best to consult a framebuilder who works with Ti. Good luck.
Best to consult a framebuilder who works with Ti. Good luck.
#4
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 3,682
Bikes: Puch Marco Polo, Saint Tropez, Masi Gran Criterium
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1163 Post(s)
Liked 442 Times
in
315 Posts
Dimpling the seat stay tubes with titanium sounds complicated. I'm curious how your Lemond titanium rides. I thought titanium gave a plush ride. I hope you are not running 23 mm Gatorskins with 120 psi or something like that.
In my mind, titanium bikes have a really great, non harsh built in bit of compliance that is similar to steel. It can be further tuned with tubes and tires and also with seatposts and saddles.
Can you run 25's on your bike? If so, why not get some supple 25's (high thread count "open tubular" type from Veloflex or Challenge come to mind) with some latex inner tubes and the run them down a bit on the pressure, as low as you care to go where they are still fast and don't squiggle around while cornering.
In my mind, titanium bikes have a really great, non harsh built in bit of compliance that is similar to steel. It can be further tuned with tubes and tires and also with seatposts and saddles.
Can you run 25's on your bike? If so, why not get some supple 25's (high thread count "open tubular" type from Veloflex or Challenge come to mind) with some latex inner tubes and the run them down a bit on the pressure, as low as you care to go where they are still fast and don't squiggle around while cornering.
#5
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Washington DC
Posts: 330
Bikes: 1981 Bianchi Limited 650B conversion (sold), 1985(?) Guerciotti retro-roadie, 2018 Specialized Allez Sprint, 2012 Specialized Crux, mid 80's Focus MB-400
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 67 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
I have a ~1996 Lemond titanium frame, made for narrow 700c wheels. I have put 650b wheels on it with 38mm tires. I like the way it rides. The tire clearance is very tight, and if I'm not careful, or if the rear wheel goes out of true, the tire rubs the frame. Does it make sense to have a frame builder put some dimples in the chainstays? Would someone even be willing to do this? I don't know much about titanium except that it is tricky to work with.
If this is not a sensible plan, I will probably put 700c wheels back on it and see how I like the harsher ride. Then I might sell the bike and replace it with something that can take wider tires.
If this is not a sensible plan, I will probably put 700c wheels back on it and see how I like the harsher ride. Then I might sell the bike and replace it with something that can take wider tires.
On long rides far from home I did carry a fiber-fix spoke because one broken spoke would definitely make the tire rub on the chainstay.
#6
working on my sandal tan
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: CID
Posts: 22,629
Bikes: 1991 Bianchi Eros, 1964 Armstrong, 1988 Diamondback Ascent, 1988 Bianchi Premio, 1987 Bianchi Sport SX, 1980s Raleigh mixte (hers), All-City Space Horse (hers)
Mentioned: 98 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3871 Post(s)
Liked 2,568 Times
in
1,579 Posts
+1 to @rowebr's point. Even after dimpling my bike, the rear clearance for 38mm tires has never been what I'd call "generous" and it has yet to be a problem. (In fact, those tires have puffed up to around 40mm and eaten up some of the extra clearance I gained.) I'd like to think my wheel-building skills are above average, but I might just be lucky.
@masi61 has a good suggestion if a bike is stuck with skinnies. My 700C bikes just collect dust anymore, but I might try some premium high-tpi tires someday, maybe with wider rims...
@masi61 has a good suggestion if a bike is stuck with skinnies. My 700C bikes just collect dust anymore, but I might try some premium high-tpi tires someday, maybe with wider rims...
#7
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: San Jose (Willow Glen) Ca
Posts: 9,846
Bikes: Kirk Custom JK Special, '84 Team Miyata,(dura ace old school) 80?? SR Semi-Pro 600 Arabesque
Mentioned: 106 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2338 Post(s)
Liked 2,822 Times
in
1,541 Posts
Framebuilder Forum might have some additional info. IIRC titanium is a lot different than steel and things like cold setting and dimpling that are non-issues with steel are a problem with titanium.
__________________
Life is too short not to ride the best bike you have, as much as you can
(looking for Torpado Super light frame/fork or for Raleigh International frame fork 58cm)
Life is too short not to ride the best bike you have, as much as you can
(looking for Torpado Super light frame/fork or for Raleigh International frame fork 58cm)
#8
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 18,084
Bikes: Stewart S&S coupled sport tourer, Stewart Sunday light, Stewart Commuting, Stewart Touring, Co Motion Tandem, Stewart 3-Spd, Stewart Track, Fuji Finest, Mongoose Tomac ATB, GT Bravado ATB, JCP Folder, Stewart 650B ATB
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4205 Post(s)
Liked 3,866 Times
in
2,312 Posts
Ti is a wonderful material but it can and does corrode, crack, dent and fail. Andy
__________________
AndrewRStewart
AndrewRStewart
#9
aka Tom Reingold
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New York, NY, and High Falls, NY, USA
Posts: 40,503
Bikes: 1962 Rudge Sports, 1971 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Raleigh Pro Track, 1974 Raleigh International, 1975 Viscount Fixie, 1982 McLean, 1996 Lemond (Ti), 2002 Burley Zydeco tandem
Mentioned: 511 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7348 Post(s)
Liked 2,470 Times
in
1,435 Posts
Thanks, everyone. I pretty much expected these answers. I might pose the question in framebuilders. I suspect they'll say don't do it. I'll see how it goes with these wheels, and I'll carry a spoke wrench.
I rode 87 miles on the bike on Sunday, and I was fresher than I've ever been on such a long ride. Jan Heine might well be right that a softer ride reduces fatigue. Long rides normally tire out my lower back and shoulders more than my legs and butt. They were tired but not killing me.
I rode 87 miles on the bike on Sunday, and I was fresher than I've ever been on such a long ride. Jan Heine might well be right that a softer ride reduces fatigue. Long rides normally tire out my lower back and shoulders more than my legs and butt. They were tired but not killing me.
__________________
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
#10
aka Tom Reingold
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New York, NY, and High Falls, NY, USA
Posts: 40,503
Bikes: 1962 Rudge Sports, 1971 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Raleigh Pro Track, 1974 Raleigh International, 1975 Viscount Fixie, 1982 McLean, 1996 Lemond (Ti), 2002 Burley Zydeco tandem
Mentioned: 511 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7348 Post(s)
Liked 2,470 Times
in
1,435 Posts
Dimpling the seat stay tubes with titanium sounds complicated. I'm curious how your Lemond titanium rides. I thought titanium gave a plush ride. I hope you are not running 23 mm Gatorskins with 120 psi or something like that.
In my mind, titanium bikes have a really great, non harsh built in bit of compliance that is similar to steel. It can be further tuned with tubes and tires and also with seatposts and saddles.
Can you run 25's on your bike? If so, why not get some supple 25's (high thread count "open tubular" type from Veloflex or Challenge come to mind) with some latex inner tubes and the run them down a bit on the pressure, as low as you care to go where they are still fast and don't squiggle around while cornering.
In my mind, titanium bikes have a really great, non harsh built in bit of compliance that is similar to steel. It can be further tuned with tubes and tires and also with seatposts and saddles.
Can you run 25's on your bike? If so, why not get some supple 25's (high thread count "open tubular" type from Veloflex or Challenge come to mind) with some latex inner tubes and the run them down a bit on the pressure, as low as you care to go where they are still fast and don't squiggle around while cornering.
__________________
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
#11
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: In the foothills of Los Angeles County
Posts: 25,292
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8280 Post(s)
Liked 9,042 Times
in
4,475 Posts
Dimpling the seat stay tubes with titanium sounds complicated. I'm curious how your Lemond titanium rides. I thought titanium gave a plush ride.
In my mind, titanium bikes have a really great, non harsh built in bit of compliance that is similar to steel. It can be further tuned with tubes and tires and also with seatposts and saddles.
In my mind, titanium bikes have a really great, non harsh built in bit of compliance that is similar to steel. It can be further tuned with tubes and tires and also with seatposts and saddles.
#12
2-Wheeled Fool
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 2,346
Bikes: Surly Ogre, Brompton
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1385 Post(s)
Liked 677 Times
in
457 Posts
Tom, from my professional experience working with titanium, I can attest that it can act like a natural spring. A simple attempt at dimpling the stay may end up in disaster, or at the very least, a half-dimple, which may be better than no dimple. I made custom knives for a while, and the liners on most of my folders were titanium - usually .080 6AL4V. I'd typically have a chore to even bend the spring part of the liner lock out of Ti. All of this would lead me to suggest that you get a bike that runs 650B or maybe even have one made for you! Now that would be the bombdiggity!
#13
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Middle Earth (aka IA)
Posts: 20,435
Bikes: A bunch of old bikes and a few new ones
Mentioned: 178 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5888 Post(s)
Liked 3,471 Times
in
2,079 Posts
Tom, I like the way a bike rides with fat, high quality tires as well. I use a '93 Bridgestone XO 2 for multi-day events as well as gravel rides. It's a road bike built around 26 inch wheels and I ride it with 26 x 1.75 inch tires. It's a comfortable bike for a long day in a saddle. You may be better off selling that bike and getting a bike that can be converted to 650b.
#14
Senior Member
I've just been reading a lot about titanium, and came across many frame builders who describe cold working ti tubes into various shapes. Other industries also describe bending and shaping the metal cold.
It's springier than steel -- so it tends to bounce back from the bending force applied. But slightly squashing a round tube into more of an oval shape isn't some black art that will only work with steel. Bending a titanium tube a bit isn't going to turn it into glass. If you hang out in a bike shop service area long enough, you'll see lots of people riding dented titanium frames that haven't failed at all.
If you're feeling adventurous, you could do it yourself with a good vise or clamp. Lock a spare hub in the rear dropouts. Spread the load well on the outside of the chainstay, and concentrate the opposite load into about a 1 cm patch where the tire goes on the inside. If that seems too tame or boring, just take a dull punch where you want to make the dimple and strike it well.
It's springier than steel -- so it tends to bounce back from the bending force applied. But slightly squashing a round tube into more of an oval shape isn't some black art that will only work with steel. Bending a titanium tube a bit isn't going to turn it into glass. If you hang out in a bike shop service area long enough, you'll see lots of people riding dented titanium frames that haven't failed at all.
If you're feeling adventurous, you could do it yourself with a good vise or clamp. Lock a spare hub in the rear dropouts. Spread the load well on the outside of the chainstay, and concentrate the opposite load into about a 1 cm patch where the tire goes on the inside. If that seems too tame or boring, just take a dull punch where you want to make the dimple and strike it well.
#15
working on my sandal tan
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: CID
Posts: 22,629
Bikes: 1991 Bianchi Eros, 1964 Armstrong, 1988 Diamondback Ascent, 1988 Bianchi Premio, 1987 Bianchi Sport SX, 1980s Raleigh mixte (hers), All-City Space Horse (hers)
Mentioned: 98 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3871 Post(s)
Liked 2,568 Times
in
1,579 Posts
It's too bad bike tires can't be made much taller without adding to the width (or adding stiffness). The benefits we ascribe to "wide" tires are really attributable to their taller sidewalls that have more distance to compress for comfort.
#16
2-Wheeled Fool
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 2,346
Bikes: Surly Ogre, Brompton
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1385 Post(s)
Liked 677 Times
in
457 Posts
That's a pretty interesting topic all on its own, Scott! I wonder how you could make a taller tire that doesn't flex sideways while cornering?
#17
2-Wheeled Fool
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 2,346
Bikes: Surly Ogre, Brompton
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1385 Post(s)
Liked 677 Times
in
457 Posts
Tom, I like the way a bike rides with fat, high quality tires as well. I use a '93 Bridgestone XO 2 for multi-day events as well as gravel rides. It's a road bike built around 26 inch wheels and I ride it with 26 x 1.75 inch tires. It's a comfortable bike for a long day in a saddle. You may be better off selling that bike and getting a bike that can be converted to 650b.
#18
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Wherever I am
Posts: 8,636
Bikes: Merlin Cyrene, Nashbar steel CX
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4735 Post(s)
Liked 1,532 Times
in
1,003 Posts
I have a ~1996 Lemond titanium frame, made for narrow 700c wheels. I have put 650b wheels on it with 38mm tires. I like the way it rides. The tire clearance is very tight, and if I'm not careful, or if the rear wheel goes out of true, the tire rubs the frame...
If this is not a sensible plan, I will probably put 700c wheels back on it and see how I like the harsher ride. Then I might sell the bike and replace it with something that can take wider tires.
If this is not a sensible plan, I will probably put 700c wheels back on it and see how I like the harsher ride. Then I might sell the bike and replace it with something that can take wider tires.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
TejanoTrackie
Road Cycling
18
10-09-14 06:59 PM