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wheel alignment in frame question?
Not sure if this is an issue or not? bike tracks straight and rim spins true through the brake pads equal amounts of gap on each pad and that does not change when spinning wheel. visually don't notice the gap visually as much with 1.5" tires but with 2.3" tires definitely notice the tire sitting closer visually to the non drive side. the dropouts have the adjustment screws but not sure if backing off the screw on the driveside is the answer or if that would just cause other problems, right now and from the start the screws have been turned all the way in and the axle is solid against them on both sides. Maybe it is a frame that is not aligned, it is a new frame and I have put about 1500 miles on it in the last 2 months and don't feel anything weird riding it but it does bug me looking at it. Maybe it is normal with a frame in this price range, quality range. I know my 1993 MTB is spot on in this area. thanks for any help or thoughts on the matter.
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...fdd5195813.jpg https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...c0dc2cbc34.jpg https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...7fd4b46af0.jpg https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...619a32dfc3.jpg https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...fda2da1622.jpg |
Could be that the frame is tweeked a bit but have you checked if the wheel is dished properly? Flip the wheel around and check if it sits in the frame the same. This is an easy way to check the dishing.
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Originally Posted by Crankycrank
(Post 22673146)
Could be that the frame is tweeked a bit but have you checked if the wheel is dished properly? Flip the wheel around and check if it sits in the frame the same. This is an easy way to check the dishing.
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If you have another wheel, put that in the frame to make sure that the frame isn’t off. Or you can use the string method (see “checking frame alignment” section)
Since you have flipped the wheel around and it is off to the same side, it is most likely a dishing issue. It’s fixable but not simple. If you have access to a wheel truing stand, the job is easier but you can do it with your bike frame. Use your brake calipers as the feelers if you don’t have a brake stand. You can also add zip ties as the feelers if you have to. Remove the tire first. Put a drop of oil on the threads of each spoke. Any oil will do. 3-in-One or Triflow works well. It looks like the spoke tension on the driveside are low. You need to pull the rim towards the driveside. You will do that by tightening the spokes on the driveside but you will probably need to loosen the nondriveside as well. Start by loosening the nondrive spokes…all of them…no more than 1/2 turn. A 1/4 turn may be better. Now tighten the spokes on the driveside by the same amount you loosened the nondrive side. Check the spacing after you are done and do another round if needed. You can check this post for making a dishing tool if you like. If you don’t want to make one, you can use Andrew Stewart’s method. You can also turn the wheel around in the frame to check the dish. Keep loosening and tightening until you are as close as you want to be. |
Is it under warranty? You shouldn't have to need to do anything to a bike so new.
Is this from a mail order? I would take it back to the vendor and their service department. |
I'd check the dish before going through all that. Looks like you just need to back out the drive side adjuster a little.
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I bought another set of xoxo wheels right after getting the bike so I could easily run two sets of tires. both rear wheels are the same no difference. these are the wheels.
https://handsomecycles.com/products/...ed-bearing-11s |
Originally Posted by Mr. 66
(Post 22673258)
Is it under warranty? You shouldn't have to need to do anything to a bike so new.
Is this from a mail order? I would take it back to the vendor and their service department. |
Originally Posted by curbtender
(Post 22673269)
I'd check the dish before going through all that. Looks like you just need to back out the drive side adjuster a little.
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I get that there is asymmetry in the clearance gaps, but what about if you look at the wheel compared to the seat tube? Does it line up with the seat tube?
Your comment "it follows the cassette", refers to the fact that if you flip the wheel, it's now the drive side (not the cassette side) with the greater clearance? Or did you mean the opposite? If the wider gap is on the crank side after you flipped the wheel, then it's a wheel dish issue. If it's still on the non-drive side after flipping the wheel, then it's the frame. Fwiw, I seem to have slight asymmetries in nearly all of my frames; this becomes more apparent (as you pointed out) when you push the limits with wider tires. It's almost always asymmetric by a couple to a few mm, in my experience. (If I'm wrong then uh-oh I need to check all my wheels and frames.) |
Originally Posted by tFUnK
(Post 22673303)
I get that there is asymmetry in the clearance gaps, but what about if you look at the wheel compared to the seat tube? Does it line up with the seat tube?
Your comment "it follows the cassette", refers to the fact that if you flip the wheel, it's now the drive side (not the cassette side) with the greater clearance? Or did you mean the opposite? If the wider gap is on the crank side after you flipped the wheel, then it's a wheel dish issue. If it's still on the non-drive side after flipping the wheel, then it's the frame. Fwiw, I seem to have slight asymmetries in nearly all of my frames; this becomes more apparent (as you pointed out) when you push the limits with wider tires. It's almost always asymmetric by a couple to a few mm, in my experience. (If I'm wrong then uh-oh I need to check all my wheels and frames.) |
Sounds like the wheels were not dished properly. My suggestion is to find a competent wheel builder, have them properly dish and tension the wheel(s), and ask the manufacturer to reimburse you for the cost.
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Might be the wheels not properly dished for that bike or you have a spacer on the wrong side if there is a spacer involved.
However I once had a wheel wonky in the dropouts and it seemed centered between the seat stays and brakes, but I failed to notice it wasn't between the chain stays. I rode it for probably weeks to a month or more like that and had quite a bit of tire wear. I was able to see the error and apparently on that bike it was the slop in the slot in the drops being a tad wider than the axle that helped make the error. They were also horizontal drops similar to yours. Also, I've never had my alignment screws in the drops screwed all the way in. I suppose if that puts your cassette optimum for the DR and your drops are actually in perfect alignment with each other then that works. But maybe check to see that isn't an issue. Never seen so much room on the left of the hub. Is this same frame also for bikes spec'd with disc brakes? |
General comments here. 1) Horizontal dropouts like yours stuck around for so long in part because it made the frames easier to build and align. Only the vertical is critical. Variances in the horizontal can be easily taken up with the adjustment screws. So, yes, using those screws to correct for minor alignment issues with the tire at the chainstays is to only OK but even (at least in the old days of hand built for profit) expected. In fact, no one expected that a wheel would sit straight with the wheel pushed all the way back, no screws or with the screws in all the way (as you have done).
2) Dish. Flipping the wheel is a good way to see it IF you can seat the wheel reliable to be the same inside the dropouts either way. 2) OCD (not OLD! Obsessive Compulsive Disorder vs Over Locknut Distance) Small variances in either dish, frame alignment or both can add up to visual issues that will drive you nuts but if the bike rides fine and rides no-handed straight on level roads and no wind; it simply doesn't matter except between the rider's ears. If I were in your shoes, I'd first check dish very carefully. Note how far off the rim is from center between the locknuts. (Say 3mm.) Next, I would put the wheel in, pushed back against the screws. Sight along the tire centerline. Does it line up with 3mm off the seat tube? Adjust the dropout screws until it does. Now, sight again, but looking beyond the seat tube to the head tube. Same 3mm? Good, the frame is overall straight by crude check. If not, probably time to run a string check which I will not describe here but is easily found. And note where the rim sits between the seatstays. This is governed mostly by the height of the dropouts, something you cannot change without moving metal and your wheel's dish. As long as the wheel sits roughly near the center, I wouldn't sweat it. (You never see it riding; just those riding behind you.) Adjusting brakes for out-of-center rims is usually very easy. Dish - yes, perfect, centered wheels are nice but a few mms are very hard to detect riding. If your wheel has dish, think long and hard about the need to remove it. (I'm using "dish" in the context of the rim being centered on the bike, not where it sits relative to the hub flanges.) Re-dishing a wheel looks simple but if some spoke nipples refuse to turn, it can get messy fast. You are dealing with fully tensioned spokes. Re-truing will be needed, How much depends on your accuracy with your turns of the nipples and how well the wheel was built to begin with. You are doing all of this at full spoke tension where rounding off spoke nipples can happen. (Start with some new ones of the correct threads on hand.) So, in short, perfect dish is the best but less than (if your brain can accept it) is often the much wiser course. Now, when you build/get new your next wheel, get that one right. (And in the meantime, don't bend or file your frame to correct issues caused by your current lack of proper dish.) |
Originally Posted by Iride01
(Post 22673336)
Might be the wheels not properly dished for that bike or you have a spacer on the wrong side if there is a spacer involved.
However I once had a wheel wonky in the dropouts and it seemed centered between the seat stays and brakes, but I failed to notice it wasn't between the chain stays. I rode it for probably weeks to a month or more like that and had quite a bit of tire wear. I was able to see the error and apparently on that bike it was the slop in the slot in the drops being a tad wider than the axle that helped make the error. They were also horizontal drops similar to yours. Also, I've never had my alignment screws in the drops screwed all the way in. I suppose if that puts your cassette optimum for the DR and your drops are actually in perfect alignment with each other then that works. But maybe check to see that isn't an issue. Never seen so much room on the left of the hub. Is this same frame also for bikes spec'd with disc brakes? |
The first step, as others have noted, it to check the dish. The best way is to use a dishing tool.
You “might” be able check it if you have the plastic axle protectors that allow you to “balance” the wheel against the locknuts on a table top. Actually anything the allows you to set the wheel axle into and fiddle with it so you can get a pretty consistent measurement from the table top to 4 places on the wheel. Flip the wheel over and take 4 measurements at about the same spots. The wheel does need to balance so the measurements are “relatively the same” (within wheel trueness) around the wheel. And you need to remove the tire first. If, as an example only, the measurements are about 2-1/4” on one side, and the other side is closer to 2-3/8” or 2-1/8” then the dish is off. But if the measurements are pretty close, then the frame “might” be off. Handsome, like many bike retailers, has had a really tough time getting frames and components and are woefully behind in their shipments. I ordered a mixte frame 8 months ago and I’m still waiting. I do have some concerns about the build quality, and anticipate having to do some alignment if and when it finally arrives. John |
Originally Posted by 79pmooney
(Post 22673354)
General comments here. 1) Horizontal dropouts like yours stuck around for so long in part because it made the frames easier to build and align. Only the vertical is critical. Variances in the horizontal can be easily taken up with the adjustment screws. So, yes, using those screws to correct for minor alignment issues with the tire at the chainstays is to only OK but even (at least in the old days of hand built for profit) expected. In fact, no one expected that a wheel would sit straight with the wheel pushed all the way back, no screws or with the screws in all the way (as you have done).
2) Dish. Flipping the wheel is a good way to see it IF you can seat the wheel reliable to be the same inside the dropouts either way. 2) OCD (not OLD! Obsessive Compulsive Disorder vs Over Locknut Distance) Small variances in either dish, frame alignment or both can add up to visual issues that will drive you nuts but if the bike rides fine and rides no-handed straight on level roads and no wind; it simply doesn't matter except between the rider's ears. If I were in your shoes, I'd first check dish very carefully. Note how far off the rim is from center between the locknuts. (Say 3mm.) Next, I would put the wheel in, pushed back against the screws. Sight along the tire centerline. Does it line up with 3mm off the seat tube? Adjust the dropout screws until it does. Now, sight again, but looking beyond the seat tube to the head tube. Same 3mm? Good, the frame is overall straight by crude check. If not, probably time to run a string check which I will not describe here but is easily found. And note where the rim sits between the seatstays. This is governed mostly by the height of the dropouts, something you cannot change without moving metal and your wheel's dish. As long as the wheel sits roughly near the center, I wouldn't sweat it. (You never see it riding; just those riding behind you.) Adjusting brakes for out-of-center rims is usually very easy. Dish - yes, perfect, centered wheels are nice but a few mms are very hard to detect riding. If your wheel has dish, think long and hard about the need to remove it. (I'm using "dish" in the context of the rim being centered on the bike, not where it sits relative to the hub flanges.) Re-dishing a wheel looks simple but if some spoke nipples refuse to turn, it can get messy fast. You are dealing with fully tensioned spokes. Re-truing will be needed, How much depends on your accuracy with your turns of the nipples and how well the wheel was built to begin with. You are doing all of this at full spoke tension where rounding off spoke nipples can happen. (Start with some new ones of the correct threads on hand.) So, in short, perfect dish is the best but less than (if your brain can accept it) is often the much wiser course. Now, when you build/get new your next wheel, get that one right. (And in the meantime, don't bend or file your frame to correct issues caused by your current lack of proper dish.) https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...9a8e7b0b5a.jpg https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...9c68cce337.jpg https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...df449038da.jpg |
Sounds like it's a wheel issue (dish, axle spacers, etc) and not the frame. The reason I suggested comparing to the seat tube and not the stays is because some bikes have asymmetric stays that can trick the eyes and mind.
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I only glanced at the replies. did someone mention the open cam QR and horizontal drop outs? Just because a set of wheels sits well centered between the blades and stays does not make the bike also track straight. Andy
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Holy crap, do the easiest thing first. Check that the rim is centered over the hub (dished, although I hate that term nearly as much as the'b' word). It's a rim brake frame, follow the previous advice and put the wheel in the frame backwards. If it's now off center to the other side it's not centered and that's what needs to be fixed. If the rim is centered over the hub properly then you have a frame problem or your hub isn't in the dropouts correctly. Always start with the easiest/most likely thing first. It's wayyyyyy more likely that a wheel isn't centered than a frame isn't aligned correctly.
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Originally Posted by 70sSanO
(Post 22673438)
The first step, as others have noted, it to check the dish. The best way is to use a dishing tool.
You “might” be able check it if you have the plastic axle protectors that allow you to “balance” the wheel against the locknuts on a table top. Actually anything the allows you to set the wheel axle into and fiddle with it so you can get a pretty consistent measurement from the table top to 4 places on the wheel. Flip the wheel over and take 4 measurements at about the same spots. The wheel does need to balance so the measurements are “relatively the same” (within wheel trueness) around the wheel. And you need to remove the tire first. If, as an example only, the measurements are about 2-1/4” on one side, and the other side is closer to 2-3/8” or 2-1/8” then the dish is off. But if the measurements are pretty close, then the frame “might” be off. Handsome, like many bike retailers, has had a really tough time getting frames and components and are woefully behind in their shipments. I ordered a mixte frame 8 months ago and I’m still waiting. I do have some concerns about the build quality, and anticipate having to do some alignment if and when it finally arrives. John |
Originally Posted by jadmt
(Post 22673607)
so trying that the wheel seems pretty centered. it is hard to get an exact measurement the way I did it but I was using flat smooth cement..
The 1mm on the string test does translate to more as you move to toward the rim. Your options are take it to a shop to see if it can get closer or keep it as is with the adjusted axle stops. I would opt for the latter and call it a day if it rides well. Going back in time, this was a more common event. John |
The dish is off and minor frame alignment could compound what you are looking at.
How is the chainline? Is your crank in center plane of the cassette? |
Originally Posted by 70sSanO
(Post 22673678)
Well if it was balanced on the locknut and not the axle end, it makes sense since both wheels were off center by the same amount.
The 1mm on the string test does translate to more as you move to toward the rim. Your options are take it to a shop to see if it can get closer or keep it as is with the adjusted axle stops. I would opt for the latter and call it a day if it rides well. Going back in time, this was a more common event. John |
Originally Posted by Mr. 66
(Post 22674082)
The dish is off and minor frame alignment could compound what you are looking at.
How is the chainline? Is your crank in center plane of the cassette? |
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