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Help with 610 ERD Rim Swap

Old 06-02-23, 06:49 AM
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Help with 610 ERD Rim Swap

I’m am trying to come up with a plan to replace some rims, and I need help sorting the details. I ‘d like to do a swap and keep my current spokes. The present rims are FIR EA60 (36 holes) with an ERD of 610 on Miche hubs.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/261445...n/photostream/

Rim alternatives that I have found with close ERD and the width I want are as follows:

Mavic Open Elite (ERD 609) $70.

Sun Ringle CR18 (ERD 611 or 612) $70-90.

H + Son TB14 (ERD 610) $210.

I’d like to go with the CR18s, but I’m concerned that the ERD is too far off, although I have seen a reported ERD of 609 or 610. I like the Mavics, but Mavic says that 28mm is the tire width limit, and I want to runs 32s.

Any experience with any of these rims, or insight into ERD differences on a rim swap?
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Old 06-02-23, 10:58 AM
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First thing I'd do is look at how much spoke length you have regarding the screw driver slot on the current rims.
Is the spoke short, long or just right?

I'm not familiar with the rims, but what's the internal width?
Mavic might be a bit conservative and the 32's might fit your current rims "adequately".
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Old 06-02-23, 12:14 PM
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I'll take a look. I think the present rim width is 14mm.
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Old 06-02-23, 12:30 PM
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32 clinchers will be fine on the Mavics. The CR18s sound like a good choice. Do Bill's check of the nipple ends, then tape the new rim to the old with the valve hole aligned and swap the detensioned spokes over one at a time.
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Old 06-02-23, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by WT160
I'll take a look. I think the present rim width is 14mm.
I'm pretty sure you'll find people riding even a bit wider, maybe 35.
I'm fairly conservative and use 2.2 X rim width. You're just above that.

Give the tires a try first.
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Old 06-02-23, 03:14 PM
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Yes, check where your spokes are in relation to the bottom of the screwdriver slot. From that point, you have a little over 1mm shorter that still keeps the spoke end within the thicker head portion of the nipple.

With common brass nipples, higher spoke count & less stressful use, you can go a little shorter. Beyond about 1.5mm shorter the thread will be exposed and the spoke end will be in the thinner portion of the nipple.
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Old 06-10-23, 01:37 PM
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I swapped rims over, using the CR18s. I'm a little short on spoke length, but I think I'm within the limits described by KCT1986.

Threads are all covered, and I'm up to the bottom of the screwdriver slot on most spokes and a little below on some others. It's a 36 hole rim, so I presume I'm okay.


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Old 06-10-23, 01:48 PM
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Keep in mind that spike length varies by half ERD difference. So 2mm rim difference means only 1mm in spoke length.

Then look at where the spokes currently end so see how much room for error you have. For example, if the spokes now come fully to the tops of the nipples, you have the room to go up 2-3mm in rim diameter.

Lastly, there's little consistency in ERD specs, since they include an assumption in nipple head height, so make your best guess on the rim purchase, then MEASURE before starting the transfer.
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Old 06-10-23, 04:35 PM
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Pictures above are after the swap. How do the nipples look?
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Old 06-10-23, 05:06 PM
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I think your spokes are short, maybe too short.

/markp

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Old 06-10-23, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY
Keep in mind that spike length varies by half ERD difference. So 2mm rim difference means only 1mm in spoke length.

Then look at where the spokes currently end so see how much room for error you have. For example, if the spokes now come fully to the tops of the nipples, you have the room to go up 2-3mm in rim diameter.

Lastly, there's little consistency in ERD specs, since they include an assumption in nipple head height, so make your best guess on the rim purchase, then MEASURE before starting the transfer.
All very good points, agreed

/markp
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Old 06-10-23, 05:11 PM
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mpetry912, you may be right. I think I'm between the two points shown. I don't have any threads showing. Some are up to the slot, which Park Tool says is the target.
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Old 06-10-23, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by WT160
mpetry912, you may be right. I think I'm between the two points shown. I don't have any threads showing. Some are up to the slot, which Park Tool says is the target.
You're borderline. Make a note of the lengths and data points, so you have a"fudge factor" guide for the future.

That said, if these are finished, they're fine for anything except an extended tour, where you can't afford a failure.

How critical the shortness varies based on the details. For butted spokes, just about no issue since a brass nipple is just about as strong as the thin section. Moreover, the added give in the spokes reduces odds of a nipple failure.

If these are 14g plain gauge spokes, and you're heavy, and/or riding hard on bad pavements, the details are stacking against you.

In any case, what's done is done, and in your shoes would leave it as is. It's been my experience that most wheels, including those like yours, die from crash damage before things like short spokes matter.

With any luck, some 10k miles from now you'll palm your forehead and say you should have rebuilt with the right spoke.
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Old 06-10-23, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by WT160
mpetry912, you may be right. I think I'm between the two points shown. I don't have any threads showing. Some are up to the slot, which Park Tool says is the target.
How far along in the trueing/final tensioning were you when the pictures were taken? Dishing and roundness (hops, low spots, etc) completed? Tension balance between the spokes checked? Stress relieving and section near the hub bent to lay close to the hub done?

As is, the spokes seem OK for 36 holes wheels for non-extreme purposes. That rim is quite sturdy
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Old 06-11-23, 04:22 AM
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[QUOTE=KCT1986;22919573]How far along in the trueing/final tensioning were you when the pictures were taken? Dishing and roundness (hops, low spots, etc) completed? Tension balance between the spokes checked? Stress relieving and section near the hub bent to lay close to the hub done?

This is the part I'm not very experienced with. I'm more or less finished with what I can do. Both wheels are true, but slightly out of round. The rear wheel has a bit more tension on it than I'm used to, as I was trying to close up the tolerances on the spokes. I was thinking I could go to my LBS and have them finish truing.

Or.... I could start over. I have a set of Mavic rims that are 609 ERD (original rim was 610) that I was saving for another bike. They would fit better with these spokes, it seems.
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Old 06-11-23, 12:29 PM
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[QUOTE=WT160;22919837]
Originally Posted by KCT1986
Or.... I could start over. I have a set of Mavic rims that are 609 ERD (original rim was 610) that I was saving for another bike. They would fit better with these spokes, it seems.
@OP if you do that, treat yourself to new nipples.

at least

/markp
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Old 06-11-23, 01:55 PM
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[QUOTE=WT160;22919837]
Originally Posted by KCT1986
How far along in the trueing/final tensioning were you when the pictures were taken? Dishing and roundness (hops, low spots, etc) completed? Tension balance between the spokes checked? Stress relieving and section near the hub bent to lay close to the hub done?

This is the part I'm not very experienced with. I'm more or less finished with what I can do. Both wheels are true, but slightly out of round. The rear wheel has a bit more tension on it than I'm used to, as I was trying to close up the tolerances on the spokes. I was thinking I could go to my LBS and have them finish truing.

Or.... I could start over. I have a set of Mavic rims that are 609 ERD (original rim was 610) that I was saving for another bike. They would fit better with these spokes, it seems.
The spokes are a little short but should be OK. The rear DS seems to really close to the 'slot' and the NDS does not carry much tension & seems to have adequate engagement. The front wheel generally does not have too much weight on it.

The use of the wheel has never been stated. For most riding styles, with 36 spokes and interlaced, the load is spread out over a large portion of the rim & spoke locations. Reasonable tension level with good balance between spokes on each side is the goal.

To work on 'roundness' you may need to back off the spoke tension a little. It is always a balancing act while you work on both trueing metrics, while getting the proper dish.
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Old 06-11-23, 02:19 PM
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mpetry912

I seem to recall that you have a wheel fanatyk tensiometer. How do you like it?
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Old 06-11-23, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by ign1te
mpetry912

I seem to recall that you have a wheel fanatyk tensiometer. How do you like it?
it's a great instrument. it gives you merciless feedback on your wheelbuilding skills.

/markp

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Old 06-11-23, 04:37 PM
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You gave a few options, and don't have to spend serious dough.

1- simply pay a shop to finish true the b wheel.
2- work on bringing this home, and learning in the process. If going this route, start by backing off tension by degrees, ie. 1/2 turns all the way around a few times. If doing this, do alternating spokes, left side spokes first. This avoids working with tight nipples.

Then realign, prioritizing hop first, then fine tuning wobble after the wheel is round. This method tends to help keep tension even in and of itself.

3- start fresh with the other rim, then you're back to either of the first two.

My advice is that since you'll be facing options 1 and 2 either way, you might as well skip option 3.
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Old 06-11-23, 04:48 PM
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[QUOTE=KCT1986;22920254]
Originally Posted by WT160

The spokes are a little short but should be OK. The rear DS seems to really close to the 'slot' and the NDS does not carry much tension & seems to have adequate engagement. The front wheel generally does not have too much weight on it.

The use of the wheel has never been stated. For most riding styles, with 36 spokes and interlaced, the load is spread out over a large portion of the rim & spoke locations. Reasonable tension level with good balance between spokes on each side is the goal.

To work on 'roundness' you may need to back off the spoke tension a little. It is always a balancing act while you work on both trueing metrics, while getting the proper dish.
Thanks for the detailed reply.
I think I'm probably okay. It's just frustrating.
The front wheel looks better: most spokes are up to the bottom of the notch. I would like to get the rear wheel better, but it might not be worth it.
As to riding style. I mostly tour on hard-packed trails, maybe 20 miles. I weigh about 150lbs, and I don't ride fast or corner sharply often, so I don't think I'm at much risk.
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Old 06-11-23, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY
You gave a few options, and don't have to spend serious dough.

1- simply pay a shop to finish true the b wheel.
2- work on bringing this home, and learning in the process. If going this route, start by backing off tension by degrees, ie. 1/2 turns all the way around a few times. If doing this, do alternating spokes, left side spokes first. This avoids working with tight nipples.

Then realign, prioritizing hop first, then fine tuning wobble after the wheel is round. This method tends to help keep tension even in and of itself.

3- start fresh with the other rim, then you're back to either of the first two.

My advice is that since you'll be facing options 1 and 2 either way, you might as well skip option 3.
Thanks: all very good points!
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Old 06-11-23, 05:32 PM
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IF you decide to try to finish yourself, either with this rim or another, here sre some hints to help you build a round, true, evenly tensioned wheel without spending dough.

Keep spoke length uniform is the most important step. Consider it the foundation for all that follows.

1 - start by bringing all spokes to the same length. Since your spokes are short, set your thumb nail at the last thread and bring all nipples up to it. If the spokes are too short to still be slack move your nail up a thread or two.

2- add tension by degrees in increments, of equal nipple turns. Depending on tension, you can start by full turns, then by halves, then by quarter turns.

3- as you see some tension, progress by degrees one flange at a time. Don't worry about dish yet, but be religious about keep length uniform.

4- once there's some tension, set the elbows by grabbing paired crosses and squeezing hard. Doing this now avoids having unset elbows throw you off later.

5 - do a quick check for hop, and bring in the worst high spots. Do this in small increments spreading the adjustments among multiple spokes m

REMINDER you've kept spoke lengths uniform within one thread, or 1 full turn of a nipple, so do not rock that boat.

6- With hop OK, bring wobble to within 5mm or so, while bringing dish to slightly too far to the right

7- by now you should want a resonably aligned wheel at about 3/4 tension. Continue to add tension in small increments while improving alignment, especially hop.

8- check for isolated off tension spokes by spinning the wheel with a pencil hitting spokes. Listen for serious off pitch spokes and address them with small adjustments.

9 semi final true. As always focus on hop over wobble. Shoot for a perfect wheel, slightly over dished with no hop at 90% or so of goal tension. Time to stress relieve.

10 finish true using left side spokes only to correct both dish and wobble
You should b not need to touch any right spokes at this point. Stress relieve and touch up as needed.

You now have a perfectly aligned wheel at close to your goal tension, so you are done.

IF you have and wish to use a tension meter, you'd do so at step 9, checking a few random spokes to confirm the the average tension is on target. There's no need to check all spokes because the method ensured uniform tension all along, and the ping test resolved any outliers.

Last edited by FBinNY; 06-11-23 at 05:40 PM.
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Old 06-12-23, 12:15 PM
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[QUOTE=WT160;22920402]
Originally Posted by KCT1986
Thanks for the detailed reply.
I think I'm probably okay. It's just frustrating.
The front wheel looks better: most spokes are up to the bottom of the notch. I would like to get the rear wheel better, but it might not be worth it.
As to riding style. I mostly tour on hard-packed trails, maybe 20 miles. I weigh about 150lbs, and I don't ride fast or corner sharply often, so I don't think I'm at much risk.
For that riding style, the spokes being a little short shouldn't be an issue, for the reasons mentioned in my prior post.

Work on getting the trueing good (roundness & side to side) and proper dish. With a new rim, you should be able to get a true wheel with relatively even spoke tension. All rims have some variation so don't expect perfection.

Make your changes in small increments and stress relieve as you go. Squeezing parallel spokes in pairs is quick & easy, and releases any 'wind-up' that begins to happen as you reach higher tensions.
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Old 06-12-23, 12:23 PM
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Without knowing for sure, I suspect that the reason you're seeing an alternating high/low pattern is that the wheel was originally built with the same length on both sides. This doesn't compensate for the 2mm difference that dished rear wheels typically need.

In any case, ride the bike once you feel the wheel is true enough, and use what you've learned here next time.
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