Riding gravel...are branches making contact with your spokes? Also, i23s are low end wheels....and you're carrying extra weight on those 28 spokes. Ever weigh your total load; you+panniers+cargo+clothing+shoes, etc to see if you're over their limit?

Just some additional variables to eliminate while on your quest to solve the issue.

Good luck!

First, these broken spokes should not be happening. And this sounds like a warranty issue to me. Though if me, I'd essentially rebuild the wheel myself and make sure it's done right. Getting a replacement wheel likely would be built the same way. But not everyone is into re-doing their own wheels.

I'm a 225 lb rider and have about 9,000 miles on my 28 spoke wheels with zero issues. Obviously the more spokes you have the less stress on any one spoke. But my experience is 28 spokes is enough for a rider and load weight of 225 lbs. Not sure it matters but the wheels have carbon rims and bladed spokes. Probably brass nipples, but I didn't build the wheels. They were stock with the bike. A high-end bike, but stock wheels just the same.

I've built a handful of wheels and I'm with Kontact on this one. Build the wheel correctly and it should be fine. Of course, there's always the possibility of some sort of defect but lot's of wheels have been made with low quality parts and last a long time. And 28 spokes is not stupid few. It's on the lower end, but not an extreme.

I too suspect the spokes weren't seated properly and if they are loosening, I suspect they were not tightened enough. And as mentioned, maybe when built the spokes got twisted. This doesn't happen when built correctly. Easy t mark the spokes with a Sharpie to see any twist.

Would better parts make for a better wheel, sure. Are these good enough, if built right, probably.

The third time is the charm. Are you saying you don't agree? You seem to be saying have the wheel trued and it will hold up. Maybe I'm reading you wrong.

I learned how to build wheels through Hjertberg’s series of articles in Bicycling Magazine. Yes, I learned through trial and error but that is the way that most people learn and there is nothing wrong with it. As a scientist, I had to develop new ways of doing something by exactly that method. Much of my knowledge and conclusion come from observation and testing…something that has been honed by 40 years of doing scientific research.

Good for you but you also had to go out and build wheels which included not a little bit of error. Making mistakes is one of the best ways to learn how to do something.

And your evidence for this idea is what? It would be lovely if machine built wheels would use spokes with 2.3mm heads but no one…no one!…does that. Every machine built wheel out there use straight 14g spoke. Triple butted spokes cost more than double butted spokes and double butted spokes cost more than straight ones. As others have pointed out, spokes for most machine built and OEM wheels use whatever cheap spokes they can get their hands on. And lots of those spokes may not be made to the exacting metallurgical standards used by name manufacturers.

As to “rim stiffness”, a slight increase in the amount of aluminum used does not significantly increase the stiffness of a rim. Addressing only aluminum here, it is a soft metal with very little stiffness. There are engineering tricks to make it stiffer but the cross section of rim doesn’t lend itself well to those tricks. A 535g Velocity Dyad isn’t going to be significantly stiffer nor stronger than a 450g Velocity A23 with a similar profile.


Perhaps you should learn a thing or two about stainless steel. The “stainless” part comes from the addition of chromium to the iron which is the hardening alloy. Nor is stainless steel “weak”. It is stronger than mild steel. That said, OEM wheels aren’t usually spec’d with the higher quality spokes from DT, Sapim, Wheelsmith, Pillar, etc. Perhaps SamSam77’s problem started with low tension but it is also something of a metallurgical problem now. Broken spokes, especially on a low spoke count wheel, adds undue stress on the remaining spokes which can then become failures themselves.

No one is advocating replacing spokes because of a tension issue. We are advocating replacing spokes because of a breakage issue. And the idea to replace spokes rather than chase endless breakages comes from lots of peoples’ experiences with trying to fix a nearly endless cascade of spoke failures. Tension also isn’t the only answer to every spoke problem. To say so suggests that you don’t understand wheel dynamics.

More like $50 to $80 depending on the spokes and more like $80 to $120 in labor. Didn’t you imply that you built wheels commercially? You must build them cheap. That said, it still comes down to the same problem as SamSam77 has with the OEM wheels. He is going to just trade one problem wheel for an other possible problem wheel. Alternatively, replacing the spokes with better spokes ***cough!****triple butted***cough!***would result in a more durable wheel with fewer problems with the existing equipment. At the very least he should consider replacing the existing wheel with a 32 or, preferably, a 36 spoke wheel if going that route.

My “path” isn’t erroneous. Yes, SamSam77 should probably try to find someone to help. I think I suggested that earlier. But if I haven’t, I agree with finding someone provide guidance. That said, it is possible to build a wheel from a book, a series of articles, or individual instruction. All three as valid ways to learn how to build wheels but the most important part of learning how to build wheels is to build the damned wheel!

Which third time? Third broken spoke on an otherwise unaddressed problem? That's just the expression of the problem.

I think the first spokes to go are the spokes that were under the most stress. It isn't a random failure. So I think it possible that the other spokes are fine. 18-8 stainless is relatively plastic - if it isn't obviously damaged, it is probably fine. I have trued lots of wheels that had a history of broken spokes and the carnage stopped once the tensions were evened out and elbows seated. So that's what I think the OP should do if he wants to keep riding his bike until the warranty claim resolves itself.

You kept breaking elbows, so you concluded that it must be the elbows' fault. Which your confirmation bias was helped by when you found the article we've previously discussed by Wheel Fanatyk that suggested they were great for preventing elbow failures - especially for machine built wheels. But you always like to ignore the machine built part of that article.

As a scientist, you went to school so you didn't need to blow up the lab to learn what not to do. And I learned wheel building the correct way with the kind of supervision that helped me learn what not to do without wrecking anything because I stopped and asked when things got off. Who said it is just the amount of aluminum? Did you have scientist hat on?

Rim stiffness is shape and wall thickness. A 385 gram Kinlin is far stiffer vertically than any 480 box section rim. 1970s wheels were flexible rims held in shape with closely spaced spokes, while Roval changed the game by shifting the structural stiffness toward the rim with taller sections - and then eliminating a substantial number of spokes. A 20 spoke MA40 box rim wouldn't last a hundred mile because the unsupported spans would break just like the spans of an unsupported, trussless bridge Chrome causes steel to harden! Don't tell carbon or nitrogen - they'll get jealous.

Chromium changes the way steel hardens, but that is only in the presence of the elements that can actually cause martensite transformations or the like. 18/8 is not hardenable. If spokes were made of heat treatable steel, they would be piano wire and half the diameter.

Spokes are made of relatively soft and thick steel because that makes them tough, easy to form threads and easy to bend when you are doing things like seating the spoke elbows. Seat the spoke elbows. You have to seat the spoke elbows. "Wheel dynamics" suggests that you think there is something magical going on. But wheels are justs parts assembled together. If some of the parts break because those parts weren't assembled correctly, that doesn't mean all the other parts are tainted. And this is even more the case when the rim is stiff because the load sharing is different than a box section rim where tension shifts and the rim changes shape more easily.

"Endless spoke failures" are just wheels that haven't had their problem diagnosed and solved. Steel like 18/8 doesn't slowly fatigue like chromoly. If you arrest the problem early, you aren't going to have spokes that survive tensioning but break a month later. Champion spokes are $.90 x 28 = $25. When I looked up labor in 2025 the range started at $60. So my point was that the minimum cost of building a wheel with new spokes is similar to the minimum cost of a new wheel. And a new wheel can be hand trued for just $20. So why rebuild?

And if rebuilding is so prohibitively expensive, why not take the old mechanic's advice and just try to get the wheel working for $25? If Sam gets "some help", and the help isn't pro level, he's going to have more problems and think he got bad advice.

But if Sam starts with a wheel with no questionable history and tries to refine it, he'll have the opportunity to learn good technique without second guessing the results.

1. just buy an economical replacement wheel with more spokes and chalk the expense to experience. There is more downside than upside to 28 spokes for a rear wheel that carries panniers. Sure a well made wheel with 28 spokes can work but you don’t have a well made wheel. The cost of a rebuild at a shop using new spokes will get you half way or more to an acceptable new wheel. I don’t know if QBP has your wheel but I find them well built. I had a bike shop in the 80’s and built a few wheels beside my own.


2. Then use your old wheel as a learning opportunity and rebuild it on your own. This will give you some understandimg how to identify a poorly made wheel right out the gate and prevent the kind of problem you’re having now. Unless these are somehow flawed spokes. It’s possible but not something I experienced compared to frequent spoke breakage due to overloaded bikes on poorly built wheels that were poorly built from day one. Besides it’s always good to have spare wheels

Of course I concluded that a broken spoke elbow is the elbow’s fault. Fix the part that is broken not something else that is only marginally related. I started using triple butted spokes long before that article came out by about 14 years. I immediately noticed that the number of spokes I was breaking went from a common occurrence to a rare occurrence. I didn’t change the way I was building and tensioning the wheels. The only thing that changed was the spoke. As I changed the spokes on other bikes I experienced the same result. While correlation doesn’t necessarily mean causation, it doesn’t mean that it never means causation. Hjertberg’s 2014 article just confirmed what I had already observed for nearly 15 years of use.

The reason I ignore “the machine built part” of the Crack the Code article that it doesn’t mention machine built wheels. He does say “Tell other builders, mechanics, and product managers at once,” and he does mention spoke cutting and threading machines but there is zero mention of machine built wheels. Read the damned article!

No, I didn’t need to blow up the lab to learn what not to do but at some point I had to take the rudimentary instruction and apply it to the real world where I learned far more than what college taught me. I had to develop expertise just like I did with wheel building and bicycle mechanical work.

What else could it be? Ask just about everyone which rim is stronger between a Velocity Dyad and a A23 is and the overall answer will likely be that the Dyad is significantly stronger. But they have similar profiles and dimensions. The Dyad is insignificantly heavier which really makes little difference. And yes, I have my scientist hat on (always). I know that aluminum is a weak metal and it would take a whole lot more of it or a very different configuration to make it stronger.


Without spokes no aluminum rim is vertically stiff. They can be easily deformed with relatively minor pressure. That said, I would not have any problem with using a very lightweight rim for myself because the rim really doesn’t matter when it comes to wheel strength. The spokes do all the hard work and get none of the credit.

Vertical stiffness is hardly the problem. If you rode in a straight line all the time, the spokes would probably never have any issues. The real stresses on the rim, spokes, and whole wheel assembly occur in the corners. There you are dealing with bending forces which stresses the spoke at the head in a way that is more fatiguing than vertical forces are.

Carbon hardens iron but chromium hardens and toughens iron even more. This article from Wisconsin Metal Tech gives values. Yield and tensile strength of carbon steel is 260 MPa and 580 MPa, respectively . Yield and tensile strength of 304 stainless steel is 1560 MPa and 1600 MPa, respectively.

I’m also not talking about heat treating the stainless to harden it. The chromium strengthens it and hardens it over carbon steel. Stainless is less ductile than carbon steel due to the chromium.


What utter nonsense. Steel that is 1.8mm, 2.0mm, or 2.3mm is not “thick”. The vast majority of spokes used today are stainless. It’s not a soft steel.

This, like “tensioning the wheel” may be good advice during the build but is not addressing the overall problem. Every wheel I’ve built since I started building wheels have had the elbows seated and been properly tensioned…even up to the point of rim cracking. Prior to using triple butted spokes that didn’t matter. Spokes still broke with regularity under the conditions I put them under until I went to stronger spokes. Yes, stress relieving, spoke seating, and tension are important but they aren’t the end all and be all of wheel building. Materials of construction play a part as well.

Wheels are most certainly not “just parts assemble together.” If they were, they would be a whole lot easier to build and maintain. The “wheel dynamics” that you poopoo is all the stuff that needs to be done after the parts are put together. Things like tension, spoke seating, and stress relieving. In other words the “art” part of wheel building. The part, you know, that you harp on about needing instruction for. Wheel dynamics is also about how the wheel interacts with the world while the wheel is being ridden that can throw both that the assembly part and the art part out of kilter.

I don’t know where you wrench but I have replaced hundreds to thousands of broken spokes on OEM wheels both new and ancient. I have seen…and had to replace spokes…on wheels that had already had nearly all (or even all) the spokes replaced and yet the continued to break spokes. I know you assume that I am stupid and can’t tell how to repair a wheel but, I assure you, that I’m not a complete dolt. Sometimes it is just better to solve the problem by solving the problem rather than keep putting bandaids on an open artery.

Why rebuild? Because SamSam77 has broken 3 spokes and is having trouble keeping the wheel tensioned. I agree that the wheel has a problem and should probably be replaced under warranty but he is likely to just get another of the same wheel that could develop similar problems. If he has to replace it, why not buy a bit of insurance and replace it with something more durable.

Truing the wheel isn’t going to fix the problem. I agree that the wheel has more problems than simple truing will solve. The wheel’s spokes are coming loose which suggest to me that no spoke prep was used on the spokes and the nipples won’t hold tension. A rebuild would solve that problem as well as be an opportunity to get better, stronger spokes. I would not replace the OEM 2.0mm spokes with more 2.0mm straight spokes. That makes no sense. If SamSam77 were going to do that I would agree that he would just get a new wheel (if Jenson won’t replace the wheel under warranty)

Or, if he starts with new spokes and a hub and rim that are probably not the issue, he’ll have the same opportunity. The rim is not the problem.

]

[QUOTE=Kon.... (blah, blah, blah, blah...)
And I am all for learning to work on bikes, but you don't do that by starting with screwed up stuff. That leads you down the path of erroneous conclusions, like Cycomute's. Either learn from someone who knows what they are doing, or start with mostly new components of the correct dimensions and keep control of all the steps. The OP has a problem that needs solving right now, and a pro adjusting his existing spokes is the simplest and least expensive path forward. Why do you guys always want everything to be harder than it needs to be?[/QUOTE]

Once more than one spoke breaks in a wheel, this is the SURE SIGN that the spokes are at the end of their fatigue life. I say this as someone who managed multiple LBS's over the last 40 years. One of the BIGGEST complaint at the service counter was this very same scenario. Customer breaks spoke, comes into shop and the shop charges said customer for spoke replacement. The following week, the customer returns VERY unhappy with ANOTHER broken spoke. This is why I directed my staff to qualify the wheel repair with:
1) Have you broken a spoke before?
2) If so, if more than one, it's time for a new wheel. If we replace this one, another one will break. Probably on your first ride.
3) If the customer says it's the first failure, we agree to fix it with the caveat: "There is NO guarantee another spoke won't break on your next ride." Replacing failure #1 is merely a way to address the "fluke" failure.
Re-tensioning the OP's wheel with the original spokes is a fool's errand. Surely, the person doing this will experience additional failures. And once THOSE are replaced, the OP will soon have more break. Suggesting using the old spokes is beyond irresponsible. All to save $50? Plus, the wheels should be rebuilt with butted spokes, far superior to the original straight gauge Dreck that they were built with.

Stainless steel is already an alloy. You think there's only one? Hardly.
Quality spoke producers have proprietary "treatment" that allows them to achieve the highest tensile strengths & fatigue lives they can. (This is why GCN was not allowed to film in much of DT's production works.) Cold working their alloy of choice improves strength and fatigue life. This is why DT, Sapim and Wheelsmith have proven to provide excellent performance for decades.

Assuming the wheels are still new (they are, per the OP), rebuilding with quality, butted spokes is the most cost-effective and reasonable solution.

Amateur hour, as usual. I don't know why I bother sometimes, except that I would like folks to get reasonable advice from someone with an immense amount of professional experience and training. I have been the go-to mechanic in every town I've worked in, at shops that had the best reputations for service.

But people that don't believe in spoke elbow seating can shout just as loud as anyone else. Too bad for people looking for good advice that doesn't break the bank.

You guys can't even figure out how to use QUOTES on a forum, but you're the best source of technical advice on wheelbuilding and repair?

What does spoke head seating actually do? And what exactly is the specific mechanism with it that prevents spokes from breaking?

You sure are a one trick pony, aren’t you? Saying that there is only one thing that will solve all the problems on wheels is simplistic and silly. You act like you are the only person in the world who forms the spokes to the hub. Here’s a hint: you aren’t.

By the way, I am also the “go to guy” in the co-ops I volunteer at. Even the paid mechanics consult me on lots of topics because I have an extensive knowledge of bicycles, bicycle parts, bicycle mechanics, and bicycle science. People turn to me even stuff that I’m not that familiar with like brake bleeds and suspension problems because I’m not afraid of figuring out how to do a procedure or fix a part and I’m also not afraid to explain it to others so that they can do it.

Forming the spokes to the hub like in the picture below shortens a process that will occur naturally. Tension and time will eventually bend the elbow of the spokes around the contours of the hub. However if you don’t form them during the build process, the spokes will effectively lengthen as it bends around the edges of the hub and result in a reduced tension on the spoke. Reduced tension can allow the spokes to move around in the hub during the natural detensioning/tensioning that occurs as the contact patch is loaded and unloaded. The rim, being made of a soft metal, naturally deflects upward as it is loaded and causes the tension to reduce anyway. As the contact patch is unloaded, the spoke takes up tension again and the head of the spoke flexes which eventually leads to fatigue of the head.Bending them during the building helps avoid the detensioning as the spokes bed into the hub.

Stress relieving the spokes during the build is also part of this forming process, although stress relieving is a finer adjustment than bending the spokes like in the picture below.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...6de54b328.jpeg

By the way…and I know I’ll catch hell for this…I have a hypothesis that another reason to use 2.3mm spokes is because the holes drilled in the hub are 2.5 to 2.6mm. The tighter fitting spokes allow for less movement of the spokes during the detensioning/tensioning process over 2.0mm spokes which puts less stress on the head. People used to tie and solder spokes at the cross point to give them a stiffer and, probably, more durable wheel by spreading out the stress on the head over more spokes. The 2.3mm head on the spoke seems to result a similar stiffer wheel along with the head being significantly more durable and fatigue resistant.

Elbows out spokes do not touch the hub flange and curve around it. So when the spoke tension changes from rolling, the resilt is that curved section flexes back and forth like a leaf spring.

18/8 stainless is a horrible spring. Much worse than even unheat treated chromoly. Whichnis why we don't build frames out of it. So the flexing elbows break.

When you seat the elbows you shape the spokes like a string, conforming to the flange in the straightest possible path. Now tension changes are all along the length of the spoke and there is no bending force. That's how spokes are supposed to work, and last nearly forever if they are maintained at a correct preload of tension.

This is pure hogwash. The spoke elbow will never seat itself and will always be sprung, unless it breaks.

My co-op is the place where people take that wheel your shop rejects because they generally can’t afford the replacement wheel. If the wheel has evidence of multiple failures, we will try to get them a used wheel and if they are big and/or are carrying heavy loads we try to get them a high spoke count wheel.

I agree that trying to fix SamSam77’s current wheel is a fools errand. It should be replaced under warranty and preferably with a higher spoke count wheel. But if that isn’t possible or the turnaround time is too long, relacing with something like DT Alpine III will gain some strength in a wheel that is marginal for his application.

:thumb: Although for bicycle applications 304 (or 18-8, same thing) is the alloy they use.


All too often people who are looking into building wheels (and most of the people who give them advice on how to do so) will concentrate on a good hub and a strong rim. When, and more often “if”, the topic of spokes come up the answer is usually “whatever”. That’s the problem with most OEM wheels. Some project manager has said to source the least expensive spoke available and we end up with OEM wheels that would make Orville Redenbacher proud. It’s not the product manager’s problem anymore so why should they care? Light riders who don’t carry weight on the bike will probably never notice. Large riders and riders of all sizes that carry loads for utility or touring most certainly will notice.

Exactly.

Eric Hjertberg, founder of Wheelsmith and Wheel Fanatyk would disagree.

Spokes are also thin pieces of wire that are fairly easy to bend. Thinking that they are springs that are stiff enough to resist bending is silly.

That fails to explain why you have broken many spoke elbows and pros like me never break them.

Additionally, anyone who believes the spokes are going to straighten on their own is saying they fully expect their wheels to lose tension. Who builds a wheel like that?

Not anyone that learned wheelbuilding from Wheelsmith.

I thought you are a scientist. How much more resistance to flex does hardened steel have over soft steel?

The answer is zero.

I remember reading about forming the spoke head once years ago. I immediately decided that "I'm not doing that!". And to date I haven't. I've yet to break a spoke on any of the wheels I've built. And I just recently toured with 330lbs system weight riding some single track and rough gravel roads.

Even my first wheelset is still going strong under a rider even heavier than me. Built with DT comp's no less

You're very smart. Please spread the word not to do the right things because you got away with it.

give it a break derailers have nothing to do with this what so ever

It's the lopsided dish tension that absolutely does cause the heads to snap on the drive side. I doubt there's a no breakage 50% survival rate on a 4,000 mile tour anywhere.
I recently saw a video of 2 young guys doing LEJOG on not bad hybrids with max 40 lbs load. Snapped a spoke on the 5th day. Backtracked 20 miles to a LBS , where they took extras with them. Day 10 another one broke, fixed themselves in the pouring rain. LOL.

Then there's Brit Mat Ryder who did the GDMBR from Banff, TransAM. NZ divide and LEJOG next. So a lot of rough gravel on wider rims and 2.4" tires.
He used both a Kona Sutra and a belt drive Pinion C12 which also has a deraileur cassette hub.
BOTH Failed miserably in less than 5,000 miles. The pinion hub twice developed a rattle sideways slop. And besides that one rim cracked at EVERY spoke hole. How the hell is that possible?? LOL I think it was a WTB rim. He tries to buy good stuff. We'll see how/ if the new HOPE hub lasts.
I did ask him why nobody uses a wide SS hub of some sort with Pinion and belt.

Another guy doing TransCan on muddy trails had his OB crank bearing go lame in a lonely stretch in Ontario. It was suggested he use an orange peel to prop it up till he got to an LBS. LOL.
Better take mine and cyccommute's advice eh. 2.3 head spokes are EASILY twice+ as strong.
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And you can't re-use spokes?? Yah not plain junk 14g. LOL.
I decided to change my 2012 first build SA XL-FDD from 3x to 2x after 28,000 miles. So all the hub holes had divots and all the spoke reseats are going the other way now. The recut did take off the nipple threads. When I move on to the new hub I bought already, I will likely use these spoke again. LOL. Just throw out the locking nipples that get rounded.

Non drive side head failures are more common because the lower tension leads to greater tension variation as the wheel rolls.


LOL

But if spoke head setting was so vitally important, one would expect to see at least a few broken spokes in my clydesdale heavily loaded touring and commuting use, no? Yet I've to break a spoke. FYI the first wheelset I built had 24 and 28 spokes, so also not particularly strong in that regard either.

There are millions of machine built wheels that also didn't break their spokes. We aren't discussing wheels that don't break elbows, but wheels that do.

Maybe your hub flanges are wider. Maybe your rims are particularly stiff, minimizing tension changes while rolling. Maybe you got spokes with short J bends. Maybe you stressed the spokes when building sufficiently to collapse the bends. It doesn't matter why you're getting away with it since anecdotal evidence isn't evidence. People that have built lots of wheels the right way and the wrong way are familiar with the results of both.

And setting bends isn't anything more dramatic than pushing the spoke past the midline of the hub. Sheldon Brown likes a hammer, but it really is just about getting the elbows-out spokes to come off the flange at the same angle the elbows in spokes do automatically.