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Keep breaking spokes
I bought a brand-new gravel bike that came with stock “WTB ST i23 TCS Tubeless Ready rims - Formula Cartridge bearing hubs” (700c, 28 spokes) wheel set.
I have been riding the bike for nearly 2 months / 800 miles now and I have had three spokes on the rear wheel break (2 originals + 1 replacement re-break). All broken spokes have all snapped near the hub. I have been periodically checking spoke tension between rides and have noticed loose spokes many times, which I have retightened and separately re-trued the wheel (which can still be made very respectably true). What is happening here? 1 broken spoke might have been a fluke, but 3 spokes in such a short time leads me to believe something else is going on. I am only having this problem with spokes on the rear wheel; the front wheel has been perfect for the (as yet short) life of the bike. My best hypothesis at the moment is that this wheel is just too weak for my use case. I am not personally that heavy (if anything, I’m light), but I will carry groceries in my rear panniers though nothing crazy heavy as of yet. This has never been a problem for me before, using my old bike (32 spoke wheels). The road quality is decent and I have been staying near the recommended tire pressure (silca.cc calculator). |
You bought a new bike under warranty, and it immediately came out of adjustment. Why is the dealer not servicing it for you?
I would guess the wheel wasn't built perfectly, and you aren't necessarily improving it simply by truing it. Straight wheels aren't necessarily evenly tensioned wheels, and your spoke elbows probably need seating. So you can take it to the dealer, complain to the manufacturer, or take it to some other professional for seating and retensioning. |
the loose spokes are causing the nearby spokes to be over-stressed then break...
the spokes are loosening due to , i'll guess, a bad rim that is either wearing quickly, or deforming quickly, at the spoke holes.......... I'd be back at the purchase location., or a nearby warranty authorized shop, looking for compensation, in the form of a wheel assembly that doesn't self-destruct.:thumb: contact the Bike Manufacturer, AND The Rim manufacturer directly too.. WTB (Wilderness Trail Bikes) is a decent company, with a reputation to defend... hit 'em up tomorrow. |
Agree with all of the above. Somehow (even if a robot), you seem to have gotten the wheel built at 4:30 on Friday afternoon by the guy they hired on "Hire a Dummy" day.
To keep weight down, a bike wheel is a bit of an engineering marvel. You are 1000% correct that all these broken spokes early on point to bigger problems in the wheel. At this point, the wheel needs professional help. The only questions are who does the work and how much you end up out of pocket. |
Originally Posted by maddog34
(Post 23553125)
the loose spokes are causing the nearby spokes to be over-stressed then break...
I’d also add that going to a spoke with a heavier head like the DT Alpine III greatly increases the strength and durability of the spoke and, thus, the wheel at a minor weight penalty. the spokes are loosening due to , i'll guess, a bad rim that is either wearing quickly, or deforming quickly, at the spoke holes.......... I'd be back at the purchase location., or a nearby warranty authorized shop, looking for compensation, in the form of a wheel assembly that doesn't self-destruct.:thumb: |
Originally Posted by SamSam77
(Post 23553103)
My best hypothesis at the moment is that this wheel is just too weak for my use case. I am not personally that heavy (if anything, I’m light), but I will carry groceries in my rear panniers though nothing crazy heavy as of yet. This has never been a problem for me before, using my old bike (32 spoke wheels). The road quality is decent and I have been staying near the recommended tire pressure (silca.cc calculator).
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Put in a warranty claim...something isn't right
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Whenever I talk to bike shops about wheels, they always trash-talk the "inferior" stock wheels that come with bikes. "Oh, no wonder your wheel is out of true, you're using a stock wheel", etc...
There is probably a mixture of truth and bike mechanic ego / elitism there, as well as their desire to up-sell me on more expensive components. Stock wheels have generally been sufficient for my bicycle riding life. But I was worried about the 28-spoke-count for this wheel, being lower than all my other wheels I've used, and the resulting weakness mentioned by cyccommute. However, the overwhelming consensus seems to be that this is probably due to a manufacturing defect of the wheel since these breakages are definitely unusual. I bought the bike online, from Jenson USA, so it's not local for me to take it back directly. A cursory search online seems to indicate that everything is covered by the part manufacturer's warranty (in this case, WTB), which should still apply. Convincing them it is a manufacturing defect and not something else (e.g., abuse by user) might or might not be a challenge, I don't know. As also mentioned by cyccommute, any successful warranty claim would likely just be a replacement wheel of the same type...though presumably one without whatever defect is causing this issue. A replacement would be fine with me but I do intend to take this bike touring with me and carrying much heavier loads than my weekly grocery trips, and I am foreseeing problems if I stick even a properly build replacement wheel.
Originally Posted by ScottCommutes
(Post 23553145)
Somehow (even if a robot), you seem to have gotten the wheel built at 4:30 on Friday afternoon by the guy they hired on "Hire a Dummy" day.
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Those rims look OK to me, no eyelets. Classic problem with deFaileurs. LOL. Put 2.3/2.0 spokes at least on the drive side, never going to break these.
Repeating the same thing over is insanity. I have these on my heavy SA hubs. My Dyad rim SA XL-FDD has 32,000 miles, looks like new. Tour bike was at 120 lbs, both trips. |
Originally Posted by SamSam77
(Post 23553288)
But I was worried about the 28-spoke-count for this wheel, being lower than all my other wheels I've used, and the resulting weakness mentioned by cyccommute.
However, the overwhelming consensus seems to be that this is probably due to a manufacturing defect of the wheel since these breakages are definitely unusual. |
28s are fine with stiff modern rims. This is a build problem, not a design problem. Low spoke counts don't cause spokes to loosen.
Start with Jenson, not Wtb. |
Originally Posted by SamSam77
(Post 23553103)
I bought a brand-new gravel bike that came with stock “WTB ST i23 TCS Tubeless Ready rims - Formula Cartridge bearing hubs” (700c, 28 spokes) wheel set.
I have been riding the bike for nearly 2 months / 800 miles now and I have had three spokes on the rear wheel break (2 originals + 1 replacement re-break). All broken spokes have all snapped near the hub. I have been periodically checking spoke tension between rides and have noticed loose spokes many times, which I have retightened and separately re-trued the wheel (which can still be made very respectably true). What is happening here? 1 broken spoke might have been a fluke, but 3 spokes in such a short time leads me to believe something else is going on. I am only having this problem with spokes on the rear wheel; the front wheel has been perfect for the (as yet short) life of the bike. My best hypothesis at the moment is that this wheel is just too weak for my use case. I am not personally that heavy (if anything, I’m light), but I will carry groceries in my rear panniers though nothing crazy heavy as of yet. This has never been a problem for me before, using my old bike (32 spoke wheels). The road quality is decent and I have been staying near the recommended tire pressure (silca.cc calculator). |
Originally Posted by grumpus
(Post 23553324)
Is your wheel laced with butted or aero spokes or just plain gauge, and j-bend or straight pull? Exactly where and how have they failed? You might find that replacing the spokes with lighter butted ones on the NDS, and maybe triple butted on the drive side, will result in better balance of tension. Or you could just build some 36h wheels for touring.
I'll also add that I have had spokes break on both sides of the wheel, drive side + non-drive side. I called Jenson who suggested I submit a claim through them to the bike company, but they seemed fairly apathetic about it all. I went to my local bike shop to get some more replacement spokes (just to keep it rideable while perusing warranty claims and possible replacements). I talked to two mechanics. The first mechanic, after looking it over, seemed barely concerned about breaking 3 spokes in such a short distance/time ("oh, it's definitely unusual, but these things happen, we could take a look at it for you and maybe put some thread locker on to prevent the spokes from coming loose"). The second mechanic barely glanced at the wheel, saw it was stock WTB wheel, and immediately poo-pooed it as worthless ("It's a cheap WTB wheel, you're just going to keep breaking the spokes no matter what we do, it's just going to self-destruct. You should upgrade to this $400 wheel we have right here."). |
When I was reading up on how to build a wheel and properly tension the spokes, I noticed one source explained that the spokes get a slight twist during tensioning. This results in the spokes detensioning by untwisting on the first few rides. To counteract this, you should tighten the nipples to the tension you want, then give it 1/4 more twist, and then back off the 1/4 twist. This unloads the spoke twist, and I think it makes it less likely to work loose.
Of course, before you get to the final tensioning, you should be grabbing four spokes, a pair from each side, in one hand and squeeze strongly to prestress the spoke elbows at the hub. Do that all the way around the wheel a couple of times. Then do your tension procedure. It's apparent that the wheel builder took some short cuts, but you can fix it. |
Originally Posted by SamSam77
(Post 23553739)
I think they are pretty ordinary spokes: plain gauge, j-bend. They all have snapped near the hub (the arc of the j is always gone, leaving just a straight rod behind). I have been replacing them with what should be the equivalent, as deemed by my local bike shop.
I'll also add that I have had spokes break on both sides of the wheel, drive side + non-drive side. I called Jenson who suggested I submit a claim through them to the bike company, but they seemed fairly apathetic about it all. I went to my local bike shop to get some more replacement spokes (just to keep it rideable while perusing warranty claims and possible replacements). I talked to two mechanics. The first mechanic, after looking it over, seemed barely concerned about breaking 3 spokes in such a short distance/time ("oh, it's definitely unusual, but these things happen, we could take a look at it for you and maybe put some thread locker on to prevent the spokes from coming loose"). The second mechanic barely glanced at the wheel, saw it was stock WTB wheel, and immediately poo-pooed it as worthless ("It's a cheap WTB wheel, you're just going to keep breaking the spokes no matter what we do, it's just going to self-destruct. You should upgrade to this $400 wheel we have right here."). 1. There is nothing wrong with the design and materials of your wheel. Not the type of spokes, number or spokes, rim or hub design. There are better wheel components, but these are perfectly acceptable. The problem is the lack of spoke head seating and proper tensioning. And that's because the wheels were built by a machine. 2. You are owed something for your trouble. Regardless of how the Jenson phone attendant sounded, do the process. You'll get something for it, and the company will take a lesson that might spare other customers. 3. Your wheels need to go to someone who is familiar with building wheels, and knows what "seating the spoke bends" is, and can do that and tension the wheel evenly and at reasonable tension. Once that is done, the wheels should last a very long time. |
Kontact's advice is very good. Follow that plan.
A cycle of spoke breakage began because the wheel was built badly. It's hard to tell the difference between a well built wheel and a badly built one. But now you know what you have. A badly built wheel creates fatigue. Fatigue occurs when you stress something with less force than the force required to break it. But repeatedly stressing the spoke below the breaking point weakens the spoke. That lowers the point of force required to break it. The weakened spoke is then stressed the same amount but that amount is now below the breaking point so the spoke breaks. At this point, a great number of your spokes are fatigued, and the problem will recur as you replace spokes one or two at a time. The solution is to start with all new spokes and build the wheel well. You sound mechanically savvy. It might be a good time for you to learn to build this wheel. There are web pages and videos and books and forum members who are willing to help. |
Lots of good advice by folks here. I had a factory wheel on my 90's era touring bike and started breaking spokes. Exactly your story. A friend talked me into learning to build wheels. My first wheel set went 10 years without any issues. That was enlightening to me. If it were me, I would have your local shop rebuild the wheel with good spokes. If you have time or interest, learn to build wheels. It's fun, relaxing, a great way to kill time in the winter. Build just two sets and you are ahead of the game on cost (relative to quality). When I have been stumped on a wheel build, it's the one thing I have been glad to pay the shop to do for me. Never regretted money spent on good wheel work.
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Replacing all the spokes is expensive. A good wheel true is not. I would not pay to rebuild a new wheel on so little evidence.
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Originally Posted by Kontact
(Post 23553811)
I hope I can cut through all this for you. I have been a mechanic and wheelbuilder since 1990.
1. There is nothing wrong with the design and materials of your wheel. Not the type of spokes, number or spokes, rim or hub design. There are better wheel components, but these are perfectly acceptable. The problem is the lack of spoke head seating and proper tensioning. And that's because the wheels were built by a machine. The conventional wisdom on wheels is that you need the strongest rim possible and whatever spokes laying around. The conventional wisdom is wrong. Spokes are the things that break on wheels and spokes are the most neglected part of the wheel when wheels are being designed. A broken rim doesn’t spell the death of a wheel. Broken spokes do. If people concentrated on the spokes more than the rims, we’d have wheels that could stand up to clydesdale/utility use better. Sheldon Brown wrote about the Great Spoke Scam years ago. The Great Spoke Scam: In the early '80s a clever marketeer hit upon the idea of using only 32 spokes in wheels for production bikes. Because of the association of 32-spoke wheels with exotic, high-performance bikes, the manufacturers were able to cut corners and save money while presenting it as an "upgrade!" The resulting wheels were noticeably weaker than comparable 36-spoke wheels, but held up well enough for most customers. Since then, this practice has been carried to an extreme, with 28-, 24-, even 16-spoke wheels being offered, and presented as it they were somehow an "upgrade." Actually, such wheels normally are not an upgrade in practice. When the spokes are farther apart on the rim, it is necessary to use a heavier rim to compensate, so there isn't usually even a weight benefit from these newer wheels! This type of wheel requires unusually high spoke tension, since the load is carried by fewer spokes. If a spoke does break, the wheel generally becomes instantly unridable. More, thinner spokes make a stronger wheel than fewer, thicker ones. Some wheels being sold these days defy engineering principles: The hub may break too… Another OEM wheel (or even a higher end wheel) is unlikely to solve his problem. A 36 spoke replacement wheel would help although it still has the same weak spokes. 2. You are owed something for your trouble. Regardless of how the Jenson phone attendant sounded, do the process. You'll get something for it, and the company will take a lesson that might spare other customers. 3. Your wheels need to go to someone who is familiar with building wheels, and knows what "seating the spoke bends" is, and can do that and tension the wheel evenly and at reasonable tension. Once that is done, the wheels should last a very long time. |
Originally Posted by Kontact
(Post 23553811)
I hope I can cut through all this for you. I have been a mechanic and wheelbuilder since 1990.
1. There is nothing wrong with the design and materials of your wheel. Not the type of spokes, number or spokes, rim or hub design. There are better wheel components, but these are perfectly acceptable. The problem is the lack of spoke head seating and proper tensioning. And that's because the wheels were built by a machine. 2. You are owed something for your trouble. Regardless of how the Jenson phone attendant sounded, do the process. You'll get something for it, and the company will take a lesson that might spare other customers. 3. Your wheels need to go to someone who is familiar with building wheels, and knows what "seating the spoke bends" is, and can do that and tension the wheel evenly and at reasonable tension. Once that is done, the wheels should last a very long time. If these were my wheels, I'd rebuild them with quality butted spokes and brass nipples. Obviously lube the nipples & threads with boiled linseed oil. I'd then build them with nice even tension, nice and high so the lower tension side is well above minimum. All while properly seating & cold setting the spokes in the hub flanges. Lots of "pre-stressing" the wheel and then eliminating any spoke wind-up at final truing. Replacing garbage OEM spokes and building the wheels well will be the best way forward. Just getting a replacement wheel will find the OP in the same place in about 800 miles. Or have a whole new custom wheelset built at $$$$. |
1. Do a stress relief cycle on the wheel. Put on a pair of leather gloves, grab pairs of parallel spokes on both sides...
...and squeeze super duper hard. Repeat this until you have gone all the way around the wheel. 2. If another spoke breaks after doing this 1 or more times - the rest of the spokes are fatigued as well. At this point, a new wheel or a rebuild is warranted. ( Probably needed already anyway... ) Whether it is a rebuild OR a new wheel from the shop - make it very clear that you don't want them "declaring" the wheel done until they have done the above for the new wheel. A wheel is not done until AFTER as stress relief cycle: 1. It stays true. 2. It stays dished. 3. It stays in the desired tension ballpark. =8-| |
Originally Posted by cyccommute
(Post 23553917)
Well that doesn’t cut it. I’ve been a mechanic and wheelbuilder (for myself) since 1980 for the former and 1986 for the latter. I’ve also been a clydesdale that mountain bikes and does loaded touring (on the road and over mountains) since before I started doing my own mechanical work. I know a thing or two that the “regular” cyclist doesn’t know about breaking spokes. Through my experience I’ve found that the common wisdom on wheels is usually wrong.
There absolutely is something wrong with the design and materials of the wheel. There are too few spokes to handle the load. The spokes are too weak and not elastic enough to handle the load. The type of rim means mostly nothing when it comes to wheel strength and durability. OEM wheels are often problematic for riders who are large and/or carry extra load. A 28 spoke wheel might work fine for a 170 lb rider who is a racer carrying nothing more than a couple of water bottles. Put a 200+lb rider on the bike and the 28 spoke wheels are more prone to having problems. Put an extra 60 lb of cargo on the bike and spoke breakage is almost guaranteed. Proper spoke seating and proper tension are important but they aren’t the only thing that are important. The conventional wisdom on wheels is that you need the strongest rim possible and whatever spokes laying around. The conventional wisdom is wrong. Spokes are the things that break on wheels and spokes are the most neglected part of the wheel when wheels are being designed. A broken rim doesn’t spell the death of a wheel. Broken spokes do. If people concentrated on the spokes more than the rims, we’d have wheels that could stand up to clydesdale/utility use better. Sheldon Brown wrote about the Great Spoke Scam years ago. Eric Hjertberg, founder of Wheel Smith, advocated for stronger spokes about 10 years ago. I had been using those spokes for about 10 years before he wrote the article and I had already found what he was writing about years earlier. Going from even double butted spokes to triple butted spokes significantly reduced my spokes breakage around 25 years ago and I’ve used them (as well as advocating for their use) since then. A 28 spoke wheels could be built that would handle heavier loads and utility riding but only if the straight gauge spokes of SamSam77’s OEM wheel were replaced with a triple butted spoke. I don’t quite agree with Hjertberg that the triple butted spoke is equivalent to adding 10 spokes but it is certainly equivalent to adding at least 4 spokes…maybe 6. Another OEM wheel (or even a higher end wheel) is unlikely to solve his problem. A 36 spoke replacement wheel would help although it still has the same weak spokes. Yes, this is a warranty problem. I will say that he has run up against the problem with going the on-line purchase route. Buying from a shop would give him a bike with some backup rather than having to deal with someone remotely. I, and probably you, don’t need to go to a shop because I probably know more about my bike and how to fix it than the mechanic at the shop does. That is especially true if the bike is older, although that is not SamSam77’s problem Better yet would be to find someone who will show you how to do it so that SamSam77 can start down the path of learning how to take care of his own bike and/or build better wheels. I was taught how to build wheels by a graduate of the Wheelsmith wheelbuilding course. I have built, warrantied, trued and repaired many more wheels than you have - and the vast majority were straight gauge 14g spokes. An incredible number of those wheels had only 20 spokes per wheel. The advocacy for heavier elbowed spokes was for machine built wheels because the elbows were not going to be hand seated, and the heavier elbows protected the spokes a little bit better. But if you are seating the elbows, that isn't necessary because the bend is not being constantly stressed. I have a wheelset that I have been riding for a decade that is 28h and 15g unbutted spokes. 14g are more than up for the challenge of building a wheel if the rim is sufficiently stiff. Not if you are using 280 gram box section rims, though.
Originally Posted by LV2TNDM
(Post 23553921)
Good synopsis, but I disagree with part of #1. These wheels were most likely built with the cheapest barely-stainless steel straight gauge spokes the product manager could find. "Stainless spokes from an Indian metal scrap yard? I'LL TAKE 'EM!" (And Formula hubs are pretty low grade too, but acceptable.)
If these were my wheels, I'd rebuild them with quality butted spokes and brass nipples. Obviously lube the nipples & threads with boiled linseed oil. I'd then build them with nice even tension, nice and high so the lower tension side is well above minimum. All while properly seating & cold setting the spokes in the hub flanges. Lots of "pre-stressing" the wheel and then eliminating any spoke wind-up at final truing. Replacing garbage OEM spokes and building the wheels well will be the best way forward. Just getting a replacement wheel will find the OP in the same place in about 800 miles. Or have a whole new custom wheelset built at $$$$. I don't know where so many people have accumulated the knowledge that makes them want to replace all the spokes every time there is a tension issue, but it seems to be from reading posts on forums - not working as a mechanic. When properly built, the spokes will be the last thing to fail on a rim brake wheel. Replacing all the spokes and the (already brass) nipples will cost $30+ per wheel plus $40 labor per wheel. At that point you could buy some new wheels for just a few dollars more. And I am all for learning to work on bikes, but you don't do that by starting with screwed up stuff. That leads you down the path of erroneous conclusions, like Cycomute's. Either learn from someone who knows what they are doing, or start with mostly new components of the correct dimensions and keep control of all the steps. The OP has a problem that needs solving right now, and a pro adjusting his existing spokes is the simplest and least expensive path forward. Why do you guys always want everything to be harder than it needs to be? |
That wheel is almost certainly undertensioned, probably not stress-relieved, both typical of a low-cost machine-built wheel.
With three spokes broken in a short time, I suspect many of the remaining spokes have been stress-cycled to the point they're ready to fail. You could try finding a good, local wheel builder -- one who has a spoke tensiometer and isn't afraid to use it! -- and have him or her tension and stress-relieve the wheel, replacing any more spokes that fail during the process. Or you could get a quote to do that, send it off with a warrantee claim, get a new wheel, then have that done with your new wheel. The second option should cost around $25, since you'd be starting with a "known good" collection of parts. Could you do that yourself? In theory, yes. But since you've been checking tension and re-tensioning, apparently you haven't been getting the wheel tight enough. |
There is no snobbery or elitism, a handbuilt wheel by someone who knows what they are doing is going to be better, they will get the wheels properly tensioned and trued and dished and everything, the machines can make some decent wheels but it won't beat a good hand and knowledge.
In terms of wheels they are a system and when parts of the system aren't in the same realm as other parts of the system it won't work as well. I could throw some DT Swiss Alpine III spokes on it but if the hub isn't strong and the rim isn't strong it won't help. That is where an experienced wheel builder can help make choices to give you a stout wheel that won't need much of anything in its life. For this wheel it has failed but it should be covered under warranty assuming Jenson is a legit and is going to help you which they should. In the future buy from your local shop and that way you can go right in and have them file a warranty rather than having to go through emails and a website and potentially more because Jenson won't be able to assess your issues with the bike in a stand. So they might ask you to go to your local shop have them assess and go back and forth and back and forth. However in this instance that will be the case. I will say this getting work done at another shop is generally not something I will cover. Maybe Jenson is going to be different since they are online but I don't generally cover work done at other shops unless you have called me in advance and explained the situation and it is some extraneous circumstance. That other shop is likely to go "oh yeah they screwed it big time and you need x, x, x, x, and x, why would you go there blah blah blah". We actually had that semi recently and it was unfortunate because it was a simple warranty issue that I would have happily gotten the manufacturer to cover however they brought it to another shop and they charged this customer to purchase a bunch of new parts and all the labor associated with it. |
One thing to look at is where at the J-bend the spokes breaking. Is it right at the hub? It could be a possibility the holes in the hub weren’t chamfered. I’d call WTB and see if they’d give you a replacement under warranty. Then ride it for a day or two. Then I’d tension the spokes. But I’ve built wheels so you may just find a local wheel builder or a shop to check it. You saved some money on mail order so unless you know how give some support to your local bike shop.
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