moxfyre

rat_factory, you unfortunately have a common but awful style of JIS headset (used on a lot of 80s Japanese bikes, mainly). This type is nothing but a pain in the ass to adjust. I asked about this style on rec.bicycles.tech a couple years ago and the experienced folks on there advised me to lose the notched ring and replace it with a normal keyed washer.

Then you can adjust it more-or-less normally, turning the knurled ring by hand, grabbing it with a pair of large locking pliers to hold the adjustment, and turning the top lockring with a wrench.

No idea why this part works the way it is... WORST HEADSET DESIGN EVER!

rat_factory

So you are saying no one here has minimally attempted to solve problems; an insult to all posters. So poster, why are you here at this bad advice forum?

So you think you are perfect? Bikeforums does not need grumpy know-it-alls. Please keep your comments to people you have more in common with.

Yes, I think I have some regular keyed washers around somewhere. I will definitely replace this lockring with the more conventional.

moxfyre

A move you won't regret! Keep in mind though that you may still need to use large locking pliers to hold the adjustable race while tightening down the locknut.

HillRider

You may not. The toothed washer is keyed to the fork steerer and mates with the teeth on the top race so once you get the adjustment proper (or as close as the teeth spacing will permit), all you have to do is tighten the top nut. Nothing can move since the tooth washer can't rotate. You will need to add enough washer to fill in the gap left by the lock-ring's removal.

Grand Bois

That's why it has no wrench flats. The large locking pliers will only ruin the part.

moxfyre

Having *actually adjusted* this kind of headset a number of times, I can tell you that locking pliers ARE often needed... in the same way that a second cone wrench is often used with a more normal headset.

When tightening the lock nut fully, the friction with the toothed washer often causes it to rotate enough to round itself off a bit and turn the adjustable race out of position by 1/16 revolution or so, which makes getting a correct adjustment quite difficult on a lot of these crappy headsets. Is it necessary in theory? No. Is it necessary in practice? Often!

rat_factory

I've often gotten the feeling some of the keyed washer headsets were super-crappy, but they come on fairly nice bikes. I've had those damned keyed washers round themselves, round the steerer threads so a new washer is just as bad, and chronically come out of adjustment. What is the best 1" threaded headset design?

cyccommute 

These are indeed very common on '80s Japanese bikes. I've had at least 6 bikes with this kind of headset...maybe more. If you can find a good Shimano sealed threaded headset, just replace it. That's what I did on all of my bikes. The headset the bike currently has isn't anything special.

rat_factory, the Park tool you showed a picture of is indeed the tool that you need, if you want to keep the headset.

Grand Bois

Get a Stronglight A-9 from Velo Orange. Don't use pliers on it!

rat_factory

Looks good, but it appears to be the same old keyed washer system even it it does have roller bearings. The threads on my fork are slightly rounded from one and I believe a keyed washer would rip the threads further.

I've also heard roller bearings make riding hands-free difficult (Jobst Brandt?). Any truth to this?

Grand Bois

If your frame and fork are really JIS you can't use one. I thought of that as I was driving home. I can feel the difference with those bearings when the bike is on the workstand, but not when I'm riding it. I don't ride with no hands anymore. I'm too old, I have a family to support and I refuse to wear a helmet.

Whatever you get, don't use pliers on it. I've thrown away lots of parts that have been ruined by "mechanics" that have used pliers on them.

moxfyre

I'm not sure why you're so vehemently opposed to using locking pliers on the *KNURLED* race. If it had wrench flats, I'd say use a wrench. It doesn't, but unfortunately rat_factory will still need a secure way to hold it, as I explained above, and locking pliers are the best choice. The other possibility is to grind a pair of wrench flats onto the race.

Unfortunately, locking pliers are the best choice in this case. I don't typically advocate their use, but having actually worked with this badly-designed component, it's the best choice.

I don't see you proposing any alternative way to ACTUALLY ADJUST THIS HEADSET properly, other than replacing it entirely. Sheesh.

ryanparrish

I think I messed something up, I have that same exact headset I took the top nut off with a pipe wrench and a shop rag kind of the wrong way to go about things, but when you have two days to ride and work on bike for free time things have to move allong. THen the second one with the slotted groves on it I just untwisted that by hand ( I must have hands of steal to take it off not needing a tool ) then the second was a washer that came off it had teeth on bottom and pulled up and then I untwisted the cup? and it had teeth on top and took the bearing retainer out and replaced with new relubed took the bottom one out cleaned the cup ( full of dirt and junk ) relupped new retainer etc put back on then I made sure fork was straight and screwed everything back on in same order and process it came on except I bought the headset wrench to put the top not back on ( had to buy it out of the LBS tool box they didn't have one in stock ) and putt the quill and handle bars back on and rode it arround the block no problem did I miss something by not adjusting the headset properly or using another special wrench like you were talking about?

rat_factory

Before things get too complicated, JIS steertubes are still 25.4 OD, but the races have a different ID? What are the specs for ISO and JIS?

Oh and can a bicycle/fork itself be JIS, or just the componenets?

moxfyre

Sheldon has the specs on headset sizes: https://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_ha-i.html#headset

JIS is the "Japanese Industrial Standard", which I think covered a whole range of specs on Japanese bikes sold in the 70s/80s. Most of these bikes are standard ISO/English in nearly all respects (bottom bracket threads, derailer threads, pedal threads, etc. etc.). Most low-end Japanese bikes use the JIS headset size and 25.4 mm handlebars instead of the 26.0 mm standard that was developing for European bikes at that time.

So other than the JIS headset and maybe the stem clamp, you don't need to worry about any weird sizes on your bike. They're not like, say, old French bikes which are chock full of non-standard threads and diameters and such... making them a real PITA to try to upgrade.

miamijim

Are there little smileys we can post?

I need the one that yawns.....
and the one that gets sick.....

LittleGinseng 

Hiya moxfyre,

JIS, Japanese Industrial Standard, was just that: a standard. Low-end, mid-level, and top-end frames were fitted with forks with a JIS crown that measured 27.0mm. I have a top o' the line Maruishi Pro w/ Tange Prestige frame and fork, an '85 Club Fuji(mid-level) and an '81 Panasonic Sport(low-end) that all use JIS headsets. Needless to say I have backup headsets for all my rides.

Threaded steertubes measure 1 inch in diameter. It's the crown on the fork that is either JIS(27.0mm) or ISO(26.4mm). It may not sound like much of a difference, but it is. I once made the mistake of trying to put a 26.4 Dura Ace aluminum crown race onto a 27.0 crown and ended up splitting the crown race

Here ya go miamijim:

moxfyre

That's true, there was a period in which pretty much all Japanese bikes had JIS headsets...

But by the mid-to-late 80s most mid- and high-end Japanese bikes used ISO headset dimensions, since these had become standard among European bikes thanks to Campy I believe. In the late 80s, mostly only low-end Japanese bikes retained the JIS headset. I have a mid-range Japanese-made frame from around 1985 which does NOT have a JIS headset, it has a standard ISO headset.

I think my original statement was correct! Notice that I said "Most low-end Japanese bikes use the JIS headset size" and not "Most Japanese bikes using the JIS headset size were low-end"

LittleGinseng 

Ahhh, you are correct, sir. I just took the liberty of expounding on your original statement

redtires

What the heck is your problem? I won't "bore" you with my resume which spans nearly two decades, but the original poster came here looking for a little help, not too be insulted by some self proclaimed old and crusty, over salted, self centered idiot as yourself. I don't care how much your mommy did or didn't hold you as a child, why not try posting something that will make a difference to someone, or don't post at all. Jerk.

top506

Loose Screws has them NOS:
https://www.thethirdhand.com/index.cg...id=42703252264

Top

orange leader

I don't want to get in the middle of this little spat, but hope you've tried the WD-40 to get that thing loose. It looks as though whoever serviced it last, forgot to grease the threads, at all, and now it's seized.

I don't think it's a matter of know how, just brute strenghth, and WD-40.

I've also heard, haven't tried it, but HEARD, that if you soak it in Coke, yes Coca Cola, that the acid will eat the rust away. I have a friend back in the midwest who tried this on bottom brackets, and seat posts, and insists that it worked. but the logistics of soaking an entired headset and head tube, in a bucket of coke, well, I'll just let you work that one out. and you may want to try wd-40 first, if you haven't.

moxfyre

I dunno if anyone's suggested this already, but there's a somewhat ghetto way to deal with notched lockrings: works for headset, bottom bracket, and track lockrings.

* Take an OLD flathead screwdriver and stick it into one of the notches at an angle
* Take a rubber mallet and tap on the end of the screw driver to tighten/loosen the lockring (I wouldn't use a hammer)

It works well enough but if you work on a lot of old bikes I recommend the Park combo wrench for these notched lockrings.

skeeter

What a grump.

Rowan

I am with you on this one. Wait till he gets to the BB!!