TurdFerguson2

Really? I don't believe it. Is that for certain brands of rims, or are you saying you could get that with most rims? And by twice that, do you mean +-.002"? That is a ridiculously tight tolerance. That is something I would have to see to believe.

Al1943

No way. The only way to get the dish right on a TS-2 (and most other stands) is to reverse the wheel on the stand. And when going from a rear wheel to a front wheel the centering will be completely different.

Al

San Rensho 

I think less than .004 in is overkill. Thats the piston/cylinder clearance in some cars! And after you ride it once around the block, whats the run out? I'll bet you more than 1 mm.

Al1943

I agree, I keep my TS-2 centered for a 130mm (rear road) wheel. The reason it doesn't stay centered for front wheels (100 mm) is that the uprights are not perpendicular to the axle and the locknuts aren't flush with the uprights, and the locknuts vary in position and shape. At 130 to 135 mm the uprights are perpendicular to the wheels axle and the locknuts are flush with the uprights.

Al

eddy m

He said "+/-.004"." If that means the total variation is .008", that's about half the spec for a top quality wheel. It's overkill, but it's possible with good quality components. I've built wheels that I've ridden for years and they typically stayed true within 0.5 mm, which is what they are when I build them. None of them ever changed by more than a couple of thousands after they were first ridden, so I stopped checking for that.

em

CsHoSi

I just used a dial gauge on my first wheelbuild. Bought the R2.O.C-Tech from Morningstar Tools. First round of truing and I was able to quickly and easily get wobble to within 0.008". Yes, my first time truing a wheel, took about 10 minutes after setup. I'm quite pleased. You really can see each spoke's influence on the rim with precision gauge and sturdy mount.

This guy Mike T's wheelbuilding page I've followed, had Paul Morningstar make him a gauge mount for his fork truing stand and can get his wheels to within 0.003" wobble.

Pre-stressing the spokes and even tension are key to keeping true.

MnHPVA Guy

I should claify; by +/- 0.004" I mean the needle swings 0.004" either side of zero. Not difficult at all with the right tools and methods.

When I say twice that for used rims I mean less than 0.008" either way from zero, but it's usually less.

If the runout changes after the 1st (or hundredth) ride you aren't doing something right. Do you use a spoke setter to bed the spoke heads into the hub? How do you stress the spokes to bed the nipples into the rim? Do you back off the spoke wrench every time you adjust a spoke to eliminate residual twist?

When you first ride a wheel you should never hear a plinking sound. That's twisted spokes unwinding as they go slack (and of course when they do this they are changing the distance from the rim to the hub). Not only should there be no twisted spokes, but if they are going slack they weren't tight enough.

TurdFerguson2

+1
I just read Jobst Brandt's book and the wheels I built used to go out of true like that, and since I've read the book, they don't.

Rev.Chuck

Yes that plink is the spoke unbinding. It is hardly "going slack" as the untwisting is going to be a quarter turn at the most. You don't want it to happen and if you do hear it the wheel is going out of true slightly. You are also a lot more likely to hear it on a wheel that is tensioned up rather than a low tension build. A slack wheel does not have enough tension to hold the wind up.

eddy m

+1
FWIW I have a Bontrager manual that says that says Racelite wheels should be trued to 0.015" (total), so you are right on the money for a high quality wheel.
The reason I like to use a dial indicator is that I know that the wheels I build are straight enough, and I can re-measure them after a while and know whether they are stable. I can measure not just the total runout, but also the change at every part of the rim. That's why I know that the wheels I build for myself are the best wheels I've ever had. More experienced builders might not want to bother with a dial, but for me it made it way easier to true wheels and it gives me a lot if confidence in my work.

em

Al1943

That's really interesting. My wife's Racelite wheels were way out of true when brand new out of the box. Spoke tension was all over the place. Due to the paired spokes there is still a 1mm bow between two pairs of spokes that can't be corrected without bending the rim.

MnHPVA Guy

The spoke doesn't go slack because it unwinds. The rim flexes inward when it is at the bottom of the wheel and supporting the load. If the spoke isn't sufficiently tight it will go slack and that's when it unwinds. Building a very tight wheel doesn't eliminate the unwinding, just delay it. Even very tight spokes will go slack under hard impact.

But spokes that are insufficiently tight will undergo a slack-tight cycle every revolution under normal use and after a sufficient number of these the spoke will fatigue at the bend.

MnHPVA Guy

BTW My wheel truing stand cost about $25 to build, including two $8.49 Enco dial indicators.

https://bikesmithdesign.com/tips/Stand.jpg
https://bikesmithdesign.com/tips/Dial_Front.jpg
https://bikesmithdesign.com/tips/Dial_Side.jpg

I just drilled 10mm holes, for each wheel size, in a piece of steel bar (3/8" x 2" IIRC). Then sawed from the edge to the holes, to make slots. To use it you need a dishing gauge. But as I said before I don't trust the centering of commercial truing stands.

The pieces on the tips of the indicators are a presta valve cap and a disc cut from high density polyethylene.

The round bar supporting the indicators is just a large bolt, with it's head cut off, threaded into the body of the stand.

It's so much faster to use the indicators that I probably saved the time spent making it in the 1st half dozen wheels.

I also made a bolt-on base for using it on a table top.

eddy m

That's the best looking one-sided truing stand I've ever seen, but I prefer a 2 sided stand. My ghetto stand made from an old fork and dial indicators allows me to relieve the stress on the spokes by pushing the rim sideways. That way I can get the spokes tight enough without causing much wind up. Nobody talks about that, but I found that to be the key to building highly tensioned wheels, like 9s wheels or any low spoke count wheel.

em

Rev.Chuck

I was just responding to this, your quote. It seems to say that if you hear a plinking sound the spokes are unwinding and going slack.
IMHO, they are unwinding a very small amount and are going very slightly slack, but this is a sound that you will(most likely) not hear on a wheel that is slack enough to detension and they do not continue to "plink" as the wheel detensions. But you must have been doing this far longer than me and have built thousands more wheels. So I defer to your superior experience.

squirtdad

I'm finishing my second wheel build...and I think I am getting close laterally, but what is the tolerance to aim for vertically?

this has been an interesting (frustrating )process the first build went pretty quick, and I was not very picky about the trueing (will revisit) because I had to get it back on the bike. This build has been a matter of mislacing, overtensionin, etc. I got the tensionometer and got every thing even, but was out of lateral true...so I fixed that...havn't checked to see how the tension varies now, but expected more trueness than I got with even readings.

smurf hunter

I've built only 2 wheels and after many conversations with experienced builders, reading books and this forum here's the top level order I follow (please critique as needed):

1) lace wheel, leaving 1 thread exposed above the nipple
2) starting at the valve stem hole, counting turns, bring spokes to even tension (dish as necessary)
3) lateral true (get close, not perfect)
4) detension
5) lateral true again
6) radially true
7) repeat 5 and/or 6, which ever is worse
8) ride the thing a couple hundred miles and re-evaluate