Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Bicycle Mechanics Broken bottom bracket? Tacoed wheel? If you're having problems with your bicycle, or just need help fixing a flat, drop in here for the latest on bicycle mechanics & bicycle maintenance.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 02-21-08, 10:56 PM   #1
sth
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
sth's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Vancouver, Wet Coast
Bikes:
Posts: 305
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Spokes:butted or straight

I am going to build up my first wheel shortly with a new Phil Wood disc hub to my current Mavic XM719 rim, 36 holes. The bike is a commuter and fully loaded tourer. I am a lightweight. Going from an XT hub to the Wood hub so the current spokes are likely too long. I told the shop I would prefer DT Competition, double butted. They have suggested cutting and threading their own spokes. These would be straight guage. Is there a really strong case to be made for the butted spokes or could I go for the straight ones and count on building a good strong wheel? Are butted spokes far superior to straight guage?
sth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-08, 11:12 PM   #2
markjenn
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Bikes:
Posts: 1,019
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 78 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by sth View Post
Is there a really strong case to be made for the butted spokes or could I go for the straight ones and count on building a good strong wheel? Are butted spokes far superior to straight guage?
Everybody says that DB's are stronger, but whether the case is "really strong" or the resulting wheel is "far superior" is hard to say. I'm sure you can get a good strong wheel with straight, but if you're going to all the trouble to build your own wheel, I'd get what you want.

- Mark
markjenn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-08, 11:51 PM   #3
spider-man
Ferrous wheel
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: New Orleans
Bikes: 2004 Gunnar Rock Hound MTB; 1988 Gitane Team Pro road bike; 1986-ish Raleigh USA Grand Prix; mid-'80s Univega Gran Tourismo with Xtracycle Free Radical
Posts: 1,388
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
^^ What he said. Especially since you sprung for a Phil hub. Sounds like the shop is proposing the easiest strategy for them.
spider-man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-08, 12:40 AM   #4
urbanknight
In beaurocratic limbo
 
urbanknight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Bikes: Specialized Allez, K2 Razorback
Posts: 22,456
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
From what I've read here on the forums and elsewhere, double butted is more durable and straight is cheaper.
urbanknight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-08, 05:41 AM   #5
Retro Grouch 
Senior Member
 
Retro Grouch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: St Peters, Missouri
Bikes: Catrike 559 I own some others but they don't get ridden very much.
Posts: 27,813
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 589 Post(s)
I suspect that the shop doesn't want to buy a wholesale lot of 100 spokes and have 64 leftovers that they'll likely never sell. If the wheel takes different spoke lengths it could require 2 wholesale lots of 100 spokes. That might change the economics of the whole project.

I build a few wheels and I have access to spokes at wholesale prices. For a few recent wheelbuilds I've bought the exact number of spokes that I wanted from wheelbuilder.com.
Retro Grouch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-08, 07:44 AM   #6
waterrockets 
Making a kilometer blurry
 
waterrockets's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Austin (near TX)
Bikes: rkwaki's porn collection
Posts: 26,130
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Double butted will build a stronger wheel. The spokes themselves are not stronger, but they are EXACTLY as strong where they are likely to break: the elbow. DB spokes build a stronger wheel because they have to stretch more to reach tension, which means they require a greater wheel deformation to go slack when you hit a bump or crash. So, this also means that their tension changes less in a normal load cycle, which means less fatigue.

If you can afford it, get double butted.
waterrockets is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-08, 08:55 AM   #7
Severian
META
 
Severian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Madison, WI
Bikes: Gary Fisher Aquila (retired), Specialized Allez Sport (in parts), Cannondale R500, HP Velotechnic Street Machine, Dented Blue Fixed Gear (retired), Seven Tsunami SSFG, Specialized Stumpjumper Comp Hardtail (alloy version)
Posts: 945
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
another vote here for double-butted. The ONLY benefit to straight gauge, as far as I'm concerned, is price. They're cheaper than anything else.
Severian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-08, 09:42 AM   #8
urbanknight
In beaurocratic limbo
 
urbanknight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Bikes: Specialized Allez, K2 Razorback
Posts: 22,456
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Something tells me local shops are fine if you mail order spokes. Keeping them in stock just isn't practical for them, and they don't want to buy just a few, so that's one of the things I don't feel any guilt about ordering online.
urbanknight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-08, 09:47 AM   #9
sth
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
sth's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Vancouver, Wet Coast
Bikes:
Posts: 305
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thanks for confirming what I am thinking. The shop is a good one and I think the guy knows his stuff but they all cringe when I ask for 36 spokes from a box of 100 with the balance hard to sell in the future. I am sure he is trying to take the easy way out. I will stick with the DT spokes.
sth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-08, 10:37 AM   #10
tellyho
Your mom
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Bikes:
Posts: 2,542
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Plenty of places out there to get exactly the spokes you want. Unless you're out of $$, get DB.
tellyho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-08, 10:52 AM   #11
Barabaika
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Bikes:
Posts: 891
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 237 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by waterrockets View Post
Double butted will build a stronger wheel.
Zinn has a diferent opinion in his book:
Quote:
Although 14- or 15-gauge (2.0mm or 1.8mm) double-butted spokes will probably have no more breakage than straight 14-gauge (2.0mm) spokes (because most breakage occurs at the nipple or the elbow, where butted spokes are thick), butted spokes will stretch more, allowing spoke loosening.

You can try Sapim spokes from www.biktetoolsetc.com
They have better selection of sizes and sell them in bags of 20.
Barabaika is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-08, 12:28 PM   #12
cheaux
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Bikes:
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Straight gauge is IMO easier for novices to build and true.
cheaux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-08, 12:36 PM   #13
waterrockets 
Making a kilometer blurry
 
waterrockets's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Austin (near TX)
Bikes: rkwaki's porn collection
Posts: 26,130
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barabaika View Post
Zinn has a diferent opinion in his book:



You can try Sapim spokes from www.biktetoolsetc.com
They have better selection of sizes and sell them in bags of 20.
That's actually a good point. I meant to say double-butted builds a more durable wheel. Actually, more stretch means less loosening, because the spokes are less likely to loose tension.
waterrockets is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-08, 12:53 PM   #14
theopowers
drink slinger
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Bikes:
Posts: 454
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barabaika View Post
Zinn has a diferent opinion in his book:
Strange that Zinn would say that. According to Sheldon (see end of this quote), butted spokes are not just "as strong" but actually stronger at the elbow because they can fit perfectly into the hub hole, since the nipple threads can be thinner.

Sheldon said:

Double-butted spokes do more than save weight. The thick ends make them as strong in the highly-stressed areas as straight-gauge spokes of the same thickness, but the thinner middle sections make the spokes effectively more elastic. This allows them to stretch (temporarily) more than thicker spokes.

As a result, when the wheel is subjected to sharp localized stresses, the most heavily stressed spokes can elongate enough to shift some of the stress to adjoining spokes. This is particularly desirable when the limiting factor is how much stress the rim can withstand without cracking around the spoke hole.

# Triple-butted spokes, such as the DT Alpine III, are the best choice when durability and reliability is the primary aim, as with tandems and bicycles for loaded touring. They share the advantages of single-butted and double-butted spokes. The DT Alpine III, for instance, is 2.34 mm (13 gauge) at the head, 1.8 mm (15 gauge) in the middle, and 2.0 mm (14 gauge) at the threaded end.

Single- and triple-butted spokes solve one of the great problems of wheel design: Since spokes use rolled, not cut threads, the outside diameter of the threads is larger than the base diameter of the spoke wire. Since the holes in the hub flanges must be large enough to fit the threads through, the holes, in turn are larger than the wire requires. This is undesirable, because a tight match between the spoke diameter at the elbow and the diameter of the flange hole is crucial to resisting fatigue-related breakage.

Since single- and triple-butted spokes are thicker at the head end than at the thread end, they may be used with hubs that have holes just large enough to pass the thick wire at the head end.
__________________
Five is right out!

My build a precision truing stand on the cheap instructable
theopowers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-08, 01:00 PM   #15
theopowers
drink slinger
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Bikes:
Posts: 454
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Check out ebikestop.com for a large selection of DT spokes in packs of thirty-six.
__________________
Five is right out!

My build a precision truing stand on the cheap instructable
theopowers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-08, 03:35 PM   #16
Barabaika
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Bikes:
Posts: 891
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 237 Post(s)
If you want strong spokes, buy the Strong spokes.
Sapim Strong: http://www.sapim.be/index.php?st=pro...&detail=butted

A spoke manufacturer usually uses technologies to make sure both straight and double-butted spokes are worry-free.

I see a problem with custom-cut spokes - they are expensive.
Barabaika is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-08, 05:13 PM   #17
DDYTDY
Senior Member
 
DDYTDY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Methuen, Massachusetts
Bikes:
Posts: 519
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Excell Sports will sell you what you need.
http://www.excelsports.com/new.asp?p...jor=1&minor=30
DDYTDY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-08, 12:00 AM   #18
sivat
Geek Extraordinaire
 
sivat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Long Beach, CA
Bikes: Bianchi Advantage Fixed Conversion; Specialized Stumpjumper FS Hardtail
Posts: 1,769
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barabaika View Post
Zinn has a diferent opinion in his book:



You can try Sapim spokes from www.biktetoolsetc.com
They have better selection of sizes and sell them in bags of 20.
On a properly built wheel, this would never be an issue. If you tension the spokes enough during the initial build, they will always be under tension and the nipples won't have any opportunity to loosen. Zinn is usually pretty reliable, but I guess I won't trust him to build my wheels. Especially since what both Gerd Schraner and Jobst Brandt say exactly contradicts Zinn.
__________________
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.

Sintesi Conversion Serotta Track
sivat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-08, 12:03 AM   #19
urbanknight
In beaurocratic limbo
 
urbanknight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Bikes: Specialized Allez, K2 Razorback
Posts: 22,456
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barabaika View Post
Zinn has a diferent opinion in his book:
Not really a contradiction but a seperate comment, really.
urbanknight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-08, 12:06 AM   #20
sivat
Geek Extraordinaire
 
sivat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Long Beach, CA
Bikes: Bianchi Advantage Fixed Conversion; Specialized Stumpjumper FS Hardtail
Posts: 1,769
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Also, oddsandendos.com has pretty good prices on individual spokes.
__________________
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.

Sintesi Conversion Serotta Track
sivat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-08, 12:39 AM   #21
urbanknight
In beaurocratic limbo
 
urbanknight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Bikes: Specialized Allez, K2 Razorback
Posts: 22,456
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
^ Too bad their site has been under reconstruction for over a month now.
urbanknight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-08, 09:58 AM   #22
sth
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
sth's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Vancouver, Wet Coast
Bikes:
Posts: 305
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheaux View Post
Straight gauge is IMO easier for novices to build and true.
Why would this be?
sth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-08, 10:07 AM   #23
blamp28
Bikaholic
 
blamp28's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Western, Michigan
Bikes: Trek Fuel 90, Giant OCR, Rans Screamer Tandem
Posts: 1,465
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by sth View Post
Why would this be?
Less likely to see any spoke windup when tensioning making it easier to get a good even tension job on the first try. Even, balanced and proper tension is the most significant factor in wheel life.
blamp28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-08, 10:42 AM   #24
operator
cab horn
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Toronto
Bikes: 1987 Bianchi Campione
Posts: 28,321
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by blamp28 View Post
Less likely to see any spoke windup when tensioning making it easier to get a good even tension job on the first try. Even, balanced and proper tension is the most significant factor in wheel life.
Uh. Who cares? You should be building wheels the proper way, on the first try. Nipples have to be turned beyond what is needed then backed off. And wheels have to be stress relieved.

Using straight gauge does not eliminate or render unecessary these two critical wheelbuilding skills. Less windup because of straight gauge spokes should not be used as a crutch.
operator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-08, 11:09 AM   #25
Al1943
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Oklahoma
Bikes: Trek 5500, Colnago C-50
Posts: 9,438
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by sth View Post
Why would this be?
Less chance of stretch.
But the advantages of double butted spokes far outweigh the disadvantages.
Al1943 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:57 PM.


 
  • Ask a Question
    get answers from real people!
Click to start entering your question.
I HAVE A QUESTION