I'm trying to find a clipless system that I can use without hurting myself. While that sounds an odd statement, it's not so odd when I explain I'm severely toe out on the right foot. By severe, I mean the natural position of the foot is app 23 degrees turned out, as measured seated in a chair. Here's a photo of me standing.



I've added spacers to my platform pedals, moving them further from the crank. I wear a size 47 shoe.

I've tried, and failed, to use both SPDs and Shimano road pedals in the past - I was assured that I'd get used to the restricted position. Well, the SPDs kept me off the bike for a week after knee pain, and the Shimano road pedals I can't get into properly because it's an unnatural position for my foot.

I have a complicating problem in that I can't stand on the pedals to mount (long story), so I need to have the saddle lower than ideal. My right foot's natural position isn't with the ball over the spindle, but part of the arch. Forcing me to pedal with the ball of the right foot causes knee pain. (I'm dealing with uneven legs and a short left hamstring as well. How many riders have different pedals strokes for the right and left? )

I understand Speedplay Frogs are the usual suspect when it comes to lots of float, but I suspect I'll need to have the cleat angled to accomodate my stance. The only examples of severely toe out folks using clipless I've come across online both mentioned altering the shoe to allow an angled Speedplay plate - one fellow cut lugs off the bottom, another ground the slots a bit to allow it.

My questions are:

1. Are there an alternative to Frogs I should consider?
2. How difficult is it to angle the cleat on a shoe?
3. How difficult is it to alter the slots on the shoe to angle the cleat?
4. Am I stuck with platforms for life?

Talk with your LBS about trying out the Frog pedals. They may work for you without any major modifications. Perhaps they can install a set on a trainer or on your bike to test.

Cleats can be angled somewhat on the shoe just by turning it before you tighten the bolts, but the Frogs are fairly large cleat so you may very well need to cut some of the sole of the shoe if you need an extreme angle. A minor effort depending on the shoe.

For your mount/dismount issue, you might look into an adjustable seatpost made by Crank Bros.

For leg length discrepancies, you could mount a spacer between the cleat and shoe for the shorter leg.

My toes point outward quite a bit. I struggles with clipless pedals for quiet some time. My problem was that I could release OK at the start of a ride but after I tired I had a lot of trouble getting the clips to release. I'm assuming that, in addition to the obvious angle of my feet, they also slant when viewed from the front causing a bind in the pedal release mechanism.

The solution for me has been SPD pedals with the silver multi release cleat. Once I found a combination that works for me I've been reluctant to try anything else.

I have a very similar problem and have been trying to figure out what to do about it. The multi-release cleat seems like a good solution I hadn't heard of. The Frog pedal is out of my budget, sadly.

Don't Bebop pedals have a lot of float? If someone agrees with that, maybe you should look into those.

Good luck.

I think your primary issue is the direction of your foot... toe out/heel in. To get claet centered in the 'middle' of its float zone you' nee lots of 'heel in' for the cleat adjustmet. I'm sure there's alot of cleats out there that will get you to yuor baseline but yuor heels will more than likely hit your chainstay and crank arm

To compensate for a shorter leg try different sized crankarms. Changing the left arm wouldn't cost much. Go longer if you left leg is longer and shorter if your left leg is shorter.

I've tested the Frogs on a trainer, and even with the slight angling of the cleat the shop was able to do, I'm still forcing my foot into an unnatural angle. I can feel the tension in my knee while pedaling.

Speedplay had no advice to offer other than suggesting a longer spindle, which won't help since I'm already using kneesavers and since moving my foot further out doesn't address the problem of the angle. My shop says without further guidance, they can't fit me. They didn't say so, but it's probably because they don't want to start drilling new cleat holes in my shoe and making alterations to the Speedplay cleat.

So I'm back to square one. Any suggestions? Other than not going clipless, of course.

Can't think of anything short of some serious modifications to sort that out. The knee saver spacers should be possible to stack if you need more clearance, but eventually that extended pedal axle would begin to take its toll.
The sole of the bike shoe would prolly be the easiest part to modify, but while widening/lengthening slots is easy enough, question is if there will be material enough left where the cleat would need to sit.
One option might be to get shoes meant for those big road cleats and see if there is enough material in the middle to allow for a mtb cleat to be mounted.

Another option along the same lines would be to get a shoe for road cleats, then use those holes to mount a blank of quarter-inch aluminum, which could then be slotted to hold a stock mtb cleat and its retainer.

Yet another is to get one of those high-end road shoes with a CF sole. Anyone who knows his way decently around laminates should be able to simply fill in and patch those slots, and then cut new ones in the angle and position of your choice.

Speedplay's current Frog cleats are a bit narrower than the previous design and can be oriented in the cleat pocket at a more extreme angle. Filing the slots and carving the surrounding sole can allow even more angle.

However, there is a limit and that is heel-strike on the crank arms and/or chain stays. You can only have your heels so far inboard before you hit these. No pedal/cleat combination can prevent this.

My feet also turn out nooticably and I use both Frogs and Shimano SPD pedals with the cleats angled to compensate. I have them set so, with my toes as far out as the float will allow, my heels just miss the crank arms.

bebops, but use the cleats backwards with the narrow side to the inside and wide side to the outer, unlike what the manual suggests.

TIME ATAC might also be a good candidate if you angle the cleat enough.

speedplay frogs only allow heel out and practically none inwards.

one problem I find with clipless systems that allow a lot of float is that you have to twist your heel out really far to get it to unclip, which can be uncomfortable.

That's not correct. You can easily orient the cleat to allow your heels to be so far inward you hit the crank arms on every rotation.

also a neutral standing position isn't quite the same as a neutral pedalling position and your legs might have an underdeveloped muscle which might be causing the duck foot.

I said practically none. I've used them before and you can twist the cleat all you want to get it to heel in, but the float is only for heel out.

Isn't that really a relative statement? If you orient that cleat left or right isn't your heel float direction relative to the cleat orientation on the shoe?

The real measurements should be how much angular float is there inboard and outboard when the cleat is in neutral position and what is the range of angles that the cleat can be mounted to the shoe. I.e. left shoe, mount cleat toe in. With shoe parallel to bike, you now have heel in float and reduced heel out float.

frogs, mounted neutral will do: 0 heel in, 26 heel out.
quite frankly it's a limitation of the pedal design. if the pedal binding mech could be rotated or reversed, then it would be amazing.

bebops, cleat mounted correct way and neutral is 5° heel in, 15° heel out (approx.)
bebops, cleat mounted reverse and neutral will do 15° heel in, 5° heel out (approx.)

Right, but there is no reason whatsoever to mount them "neutral". Mount them turned a few degrees and you can pivot your foot inward more than enough to heel-strike the crank. How much more inward float can you use?

at least 10 of the 26 would be nice.

All that would do is assure your heels hit the crank arms and chainstays. Again, to what benefit?

The first version of Speedplay's "MTB" pedals were called "Magnums" and had no inner stops to limit the float. They were tricky to use because heel strike was a frequent problem unless you were very careful as you pedaled.

When Magnums were redesigned into the current Frogs, Speedplay added inner rotation stops to avoid this problem. Having ridden both models, I can attest the Frogs are much easier to use.

There is no reason you can't set up Frog cleats to have plenty of rotation to the inside if you want it and don't mind hitting the crank.

Kneesaver pedal extenders are critical for extreme-toe out. Even if you can figure out a solution for the rotation you're gonna need at LEAST the 20mm to keep your heel from striking the crank.

23 degrees is a really extreme amount..... Im at about 20 degree and I'm still searching for a solution.

Custom shoe makers can build you up a custom shoe with speedplay 4-bolts set at an angle. That plus the 15 degrees of rotation will be enough. But custom shoes are expensive! D2 might be the cheapest to solve the problem but even that will run you around $1000.... but gotta do what you gotta do.

(note to admins: sorry for bumping this thread but its the top google result for people seeking to fix this problem)

When I first went with Frogs (15 years ago?), I had to carve a bit off the inside of the lugs on all my shoes to get them to fit. It's not really a big deal. Figure out how the cleats need to be mounted to get the angle you want (I probably go to about 15 degrees heel in), and trim the lugs to fit. Most MTB shoes have lugs that are so big, you could carve half of them off and still be able to walk.

As HillRider noted, the newer Frog cleats are a bit narrower, and thus easier to fit. You can still trim shoe lugs as needed.

SCOR Kneesavers (shown here with a speedplay Frog, optional ) moves the pedal outboard with a threaded extender, for such a situation.

only thing to be aware of is it wont take a End of the spindle hex socket pedal .. because the piece is solid where it screws into the crankarm

I recall specially ordered Thru the company Speed play sells a variety of pedal spindle lengths longer , most pedals make just one .

Have you investigated bodywork/ yoga/ chiropractic/ stretching?

Your 'natural position' may be your current posture, but can be improved.

What is assumed to be difference in leg length is often actually misalignment of the hips.

Certainly a short hamstring is not a fixed condition that must be adapted to.