I saw a pic of a very nice C&V here the other day. I noticed there appeared to be wire wrapped around where the spokes crossed.

I've not seen this before and I am curious.

Thanks,

Mike

The topic comes up from time to time. The practice is known as "tying and soldering". The folklore that circulates in the bike world is that it makes the wheel ride more stiffly. This is untrue, though you may find a lot of people who defend the practice for that reason.

The origin is that breaking spokes used to let the spoke stick out and cause a worse accident, so tying and soldering would keep a broken spoke in place.

Used to be very common on hand built wheels. Supposed to make them stiffer, more responsive, etc.

https://www.urbanvelo.org/issue11/urb...11_p70-71.html

https://yarchive.net/bike/tying-and-soldering.html

Yeah, no.

Thanks for the responses. I have a reasonable grasp of mechanics however I couldn't figure this one.

Thanks,

Mike

You couldn't figure it out BECAUSE you have a grasp of mechanics.

+1 The one thing I couldn't understand about the guy who taught me to build wheels is that he insisted that every wheel should be 36 holes, 4 cross, tied and soldered. I weighed 120 lb back then and couldn't run a 16 spoke wheel out of true.

I've seen this years ago and also understood that it would make the wheel stiffer. I've no knowledge of whether this is true, but I am curious why you say it doesn't. Out of curiosity I would have thought that the extra triangulation caused by tying spokes where they cross would have helped make them stiffer. Could someone explain, in simple terms, why it doesn't?

Stiffness of wheels is not really a criterion we need to concern ourselves with, since tires are far less stiff than wheels.

Properly tensioned spokes are not affected by the tying, as solder only "holds" the spokes where the tension and crossing dictates. For a wheel that is not properly tensioned, there is a certain amount of rubbing at the cross points, which may be prevented by tying tightly. In either case, solder is much too soft to have a lasting impact on the wheels given the forces that the wheel is under.

It also makes it easy to replace a damaged rim.

The trouble it saves is far less than the trouble that tying and soldering involves!

I'll come in to defend the practise, but not for it's stated reasons. As Tom pointed out, it's a real pain to tie and solder a wheel, so only the most carefully hand built wheels will have this feature. It doesn't actually make the wheel better, but it's an indicator that the wheelbuilder spent his time (and was gullible)

Please read post #4. I didn't write it for the lulz.

This is absolutely not true. The stiffness of a wheel is of very large importance to racers and is very noticeable during cornering. There was a discernable difference between running straight gauge spokes and bladed spokes on the exact same hub/rims.

I respect you and your experience, so it's only because of that that I'll consider that you might be right. I'd have to see something scientific to back it up. The placebo effect is very strong, even on racers.

Were Lance Armstrong's wheels tied and soldered??

I don't think there is any more stress on a wheel when you are cornering than when you are going straight. When you lean into a corner the wheel is still
pressing straight down on the road surface. I used to have a Harley with a sidecar, now that was hard on spokes because the wheels were always
at a 90 degree angle to the road so when cornering there was a lot of side stress placed on the spokes.

If you ever have an opportunity to try it, you should. Use the same tyre and tube, note the exact same pressure it's pumped up to, and only change out the spokes. The wheel with bladed spokes will feel mushier when cornering.

By scientific, I mean a controlled experiment, changing one variable at a time. If a test ride is involved where the rider describes a subjective feeling, he should be made unaware of what he's riding until after he gives his feedback.

These types of tests are rare, which makes it hard to separate the folklore from the truth.

Also, there are other factors, such as unintended consequences. I've read that the sound of radial spokes is different from that of crossed spokes, but in a subtle way. This can lead people to claim that the ride quality is different, though they are not actually experiencing a different in stiffness or shock absorption.

I could imagine in a time where the steel in the spokes had less tensile strength and elasticity than what we use today that tying and soldering the spokes may have helped reduce spoke breakage by vectoring some of the tensions as the spoke went from an elastic to a plastic state in extreme conditions. It may have widened the "window" of elasticity. Obviously, this would need testing to prove.

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel/index.htm
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel/grignon.htm

You're wrong. Thanks. There's a scientific study to backup my anecdotal experience and of the experience of the racing experience of the many customers and people that a shop employee will know. And for a more recent study:

https://www.rouesartisanales.com/article-23159755.html

Thank you. I found the first and third articles to be interested and the second less so.

To whom does lateral stiffness matter? I can see it mattering to a strong racer. Do you think average riders can discern it? I tend to doubt it.

Hey, I know you're an experienced mechanic. I am, too, though I've been out of the profession for years. Please don't take it as an attack on you when I question your assertions. It's an opportunity for you to explain what you know, and you've done so. Your knowledge will be questioned again. Count on it. Don't expect it to mean that your legitimacy is necessarily in question.

I'm not sure what you mean by "straight down". We have to draw two independent force vectors. One is downward force of gravity and the other lateral-force from cornering. The resultant vector is in-line with the plane of the bike if the rider stays centered. At 1g of cornering, this vector would be at 45-degrees. The force on the spokes however, is still in-line with the hub & rim.

However, there are numerous cases where the rider's body is NOT in-line with the plane of the bike. Most noticeable for me is in sprints where I'm rocking the bike back & forth. However, my weight is still roughly centered between a line between the tyre's contact patches. This results in my weight pushing down on the wheels at an angle. Laterally soft wheels DO bend and the result is the rim rubbing on the brake-pads. I've found that 32/36h wide box-section rims combined with straight 14ga spokes and high-flange hubs (with wide flange-spacing) gives the most laterally-stiff wheels. The numbers of crosses doesn't make a significant difference laterally, just in torsion to resist the incredibly massive amounts of torque a human actually generates at the back hub.

Last Analysis Dept:

It's an all abandoned practice: Tying & Soldering spokes. Don't bother - unless you're building a bike to hang on a wall with the way it may have looked 50 years ago.