Hub maintenance
02-06-10 | 07:40 AM
#1
Thread Starter
Kid A
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,778
Likes: 5
From: Alexandria, VA
Hub maintenance
So, I figured out why you need cone wrenches to do hub maintenance after using two adjustable wrenches and getting the bearings all cleaned up 
. I felt kind of stupid, but figured if I did need them I could order some, so I knew the consequences wouldn't be too bad.
Are the double-sided park tools wrenches decent for a home shop guy? They're pretty cheap on Nashbar and I think I only need the 13/15mm....probably get 2 of them.
BTW- I used a sterile plastic jug filled with WD-40 to clean the ball bearings....anyone else do that?
. I felt kind of stupid, but figured if I did need them I could order some, so I knew the consequences wouldn't be too bad.Are the double-sided park tools wrenches decent for a home shop guy? They're pretty cheap on Nashbar and I think I only need the 13/15mm....probably get 2 of them.
BTW- I used a sterile plastic jug filled with WD-40 to clean the ball bearings....anyone else do that?
02-06-10 | 07:43 AM
#2
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 8,162
Likes: 647
From: Brooklyn NY
Bikes: Kuota Kredo/Chorus, Trek 7000 commuter, Trek 8000 MTB and a few others
Except for the fact that you're buried in snow at the moment, I'd just go to the lbs and pick them up. After shipping you'll pay more online.
02-06-10 | 07:55 AM
#3
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,149
Likes: 76
From: Arlington, VA USA
So, I figured out why you need cone wrenches to do hub maintenance after using two adjustable wrenches and getting the bearings all cleaned up . I felt kind of stupid, but figured if I did need them I could order some, so I knew the consequences wouldn't be too bad.
Are the double-sided park tools wrenches decent for a home shop guy? They're pretty cheap on Nashbar and I think I only need the 13/15mm....probably get 2 of them.
BTW- I used a sterile plastic jug filled with WD-40 to clean the ball bearings....anyone else do that?
. I felt kind of stupid, but figured if I did need them I could order some, so I knew the consequences wouldn't be too bad.Are the double-sided park tools wrenches decent for a home shop guy? They're pretty cheap on Nashbar and I think I only need the 13/15mm....probably get 2 of them.
BTW- I used a sterile plastic jug filled with WD-40 to clean the ball bearings....anyone else do that?
oh, and I'm buried in snow too so nothing to do but bike maintenance.
Last edited by DOS; 02-06-10 at 08:07 AM.
02-06-10 | 08:10 AM
#4
Thread Starter
Kid A
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,778
Likes: 5
From: Alexandria, VA
Just ordered them from Nashbar....$5 a piece. My LBS is a small one and would likely have to order them for me anyway. I overhauled my pedals last night, and did the front hub this morning - just need the wrenches to finish the adjustment.
Snow is a great time to do maintenance! I may do that rear wheel too....but I hear (and see) that it will be slightly more complicated.
Snow is a great time to do maintenance! I may do that rear wheel too....but I hear (and see) that it will be slightly more complicated.
02-06-10 | 10:04 AM
#5
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 662
Likes: 2
From: Silicon Valley, CA.
Loose balls are very cheap if you buy them in bulk. Even the somewhat-overkill grade 25 stainless ones are less than $0.10 each if you buy them in bulk. The normal grade 25 through-hardened steel ones are even cheaper. Thus, there's no need to go through the trouble of cleaning them, especially since you'll need to make sure they're rinsed properly before popping them back. That's a lot of trouble when you don't even know if the balls are still within tolerance.
In any case, if you plan on doing this regularly and have a bunch of hubs that use the same size balls, it pays to keep a stash of new loose balls handy. For example, Shimano fronts tend to use 3/16" balls and their rears tend to use 1/4" balls, regardless of model; recent loose-ball Campagnolo hubs, front and rear both use 5/32" balls. With a selection of three sizes costing me about $150 (for stainless ones), I've got a lifetime supply for all my hubs.
Here's an interesting discourse by bimini from RoadBikeReview Forums regarding this very subject. The whole thread is here.
Finally a subject that I am a true expert on. I worked as the plant engineer for 5 years at the largest ball bearing factory in the US. We made a million pounds of balls a month. (Thats a lot of balls! as we use to say)
In the higher tollerance bearings, grade 200 and better, matching lots is manditory. The ball to ball tollerance within a lot of grade 25 balls is 0.000025" however the balls can very from the listed nominal size by as much as 0.0001". All balls used in a bearing race must be changed when replacing balls, and all the balls used must come from the same lot. Otherwise you will have balls of different sizes in the bearing and all the load will go on the biggest ball, overloading the ball and the race.
Grade 25 is really an overkill for any bicycle application. But for the few pennies more they don't hurt. I am sure campy uses the 25's just because they feel smoother when spinning the hub by hand. (the look and feel of things are very important to the Italians) You don't have to have grade 25s until you start seeing 5000 RPM's or more, and this is only due to the heat buildup of rougher bearings at those speeds. Grade 10s are only needed in very high speed racing engines and such. We also made a few grade 3's that were used in jet turbine applications at 30,000 to 60,000 RPMs. Those bearings got real pricey, just measuring something within 0.000003 inches tooks some very special and expensive equipment.
Using too smooth of ball can cause lubrication problems. If the ball is too smooth it will not carry the oil or grease around as it rotates. Grade 10 may be a bad choice depending on the type of lubricant being used. For grades lower than 25 the finishing process of the balls change. Grade 200 to 25 have a ground finish and do a good job carrying oils and lubes. Grades 10 and below have a lapped and polished finish and are normally used only in pressurized lubrication systems where oil is constantly forced around the bearings.
In the higher tollerance bearings, grade 200 and better, matching lots is manditory. The ball to ball tollerance within a lot of grade 25 balls is 0.000025" however the balls can very from the listed nominal size by as much as 0.0001". All balls used in a bearing race must be changed when replacing balls, and all the balls used must come from the same lot. Otherwise you will have balls of different sizes in the bearing and all the load will go on the biggest ball, overloading the ball and the race.
Grade 25 is really an overkill for any bicycle application. But for the few pennies more they don't hurt. I am sure campy uses the 25's just because they feel smoother when spinning the hub by hand. (the look and feel of things are very important to the Italians) You don't have to have grade 25s until you start seeing 5000 RPM's or more, and this is only due to the heat buildup of rougher bearings at those speeds. Grade 10s are only needed in very high speed racing engines and such. We also made a few grade 3's that were used in jet turbine applications at 30,000 to 60,000 RPMs. Those bearings got real pricey, just measuring something within 0.000003 inches tooks some very special and expensive equipment.
Using too smooth of ball can cause lubrication problems. If the ball is too smooth it will not carry the oil or grease around as it rotates. Grade 10 may be a bad choice depending on the type of lubricant being used. For grades lower than 25 the finishing process of the balls change. Grade 200 to 25 have a ground finish and do a good job carrying oils and lubes. Grades 10 and below have a lapped and polished finish and are normally used only in pressurized lubrication systems where oil is constantly forced around the bearings.
02-06-10 | 10:36 AM
#6
Thread Starter
Kid A
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,778
Likes: 5
From: Alexandria, VA
Wow, very informative link! You can never learn too much about your balls when it comes to bike maintenance .
I would be more conscious of having new balls, but I don't intend to use this wheelset but for another year....a new set of touring wheels will be used then.
. I would be more conscious of having new balls, but I don't intend to use this wheelset but for another year....a new set of touring wheels will be used then
.
02-06-10 | 11:28 AM
#7
cab horn
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 28,353
Likes: 30
From: Toronto
Bikes: 1987 Bianchi Campione
Don't bother re-using those balls, especially cleaning them in an very toxic bath of WD-40.
02-06-10 | 11:29 AM
#8
cab horn
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 28,353
Likes: 30
From: Toronto
Bikes: 1987 Bianchi Campione
@Gene2308: Why "sterile"? Are you afraid you'll get the balls infected?
Loose balls are very cheap if you buy them in bulk. Even the somewhat-overkill grade 25 stainless ones are less than $0.10 each if you buy them in bulk. The normal grade 25 through-hardened steel ones are even cheaper. Thus, there's no need to go through the trouble of cleaning them, especially since you'll need to make sure they're rinsed properly before popping them back. That's a lot of trouble when you don't even know if the balls are still within tolerance.
In any case, if you plan on doing this regularly and have a bunch of hubs that use the same size balls, it pays to keep a stash of new loose balls handy. For example, Shimano fronts tend to use 3/16" balls and their rears tend to use 1/4" balls, regardless of model; recent loose-ball Campagnolo hubs, front and rear both use 5/32" balls. With a selection of three sizes costing me about $150 (for stainless ones), I've got a lifetime supply for all my hubs.
Here's an interesting discourse by bimini from RoadBikeReview Forums regarding this very subject. The whole thread is here.
Loose balls are very cheap if you buy them in bulk. Even the somewhat-overkill grade 25 stainless ones are less than $0.10 each if you buy them in bulk. The normal grade 25 through-hardened steel ones are even cheaper. Thus, there's no need to go through the trouble of cleaning them, especially since you'll need to make sure they're rinsed properly before popping them back. That's a lot of trouble when you don't even know if the balls are still within tolerance.
In any case, if you plan on doing this regularly and have a bunch of hubs that use the same size balls, it pays to keep a stash of new loose balls handy. For example, Shimano fronts tend to use 3/16" balls and their rears tend to use 1/4" balls, regardless of model; recent loose-ball Campagnolo hubs, front and rear both use 5/32" balls. With a selection of three sizes costing me about $150 (for stainless ones), I've got a lifetime supply for all my hubs.
Here's an interesting discourse by bimini from RoadBikeReview Forums regarding this very subject. The whole thread is here.
Finally a subject that I am a true expert on. I worked as the plant engineer for 5 years at the largest ball bearing factory in the US. We made a million pounds of balls a month. (Thats a lot of balls! as we use to say)
In the higher tollerance bearings, grade 200 and better, matching lots is manditory. The ball to ball tollerance within a lot of grade 25 balls is 0.000025" however the balls can very from the listed nominal size by as much as 0.0001". All balls used in a bearing race must be changed when replacing balls, and all the balls used must come from the same lot. Otherwise you will have balls of different sizes in the bearing and all the load will go on the biggest ball, overloading the ball and the race.
Grade 25 is really an overkill for any bicycle application. But for the few pennies more they don't hurt. I am sure campy uses the 25's just because they feel smoother when spinning the hub by hand. (the look and feel of things are very important to the Italians) You don't have to have grade 25s until you start seeing 5000 RPM's or more, and this is only due to the heat buildup of rougher bearings at those speeds. Grade 10s are only needed in very high speed racing engines and such. We also made a few grade 3's that were used in jet turbine applications at 30,000 to 60,000 RPMs. Those bearings got real pricey, just measuring something within 0.000003 inches tooks some very special and expensive equipment.
Using too smooth of ball can cause lubrication problems. If the ball is too smooth it will not carry the oil or grease around as it rotates. Grade 10 may be a bad choice depending on the type of lubricant being used. For grades lower than 25 the finishing process of the balls change. Grade 200 to 25 have a ground finish and do a good job carrying oils and lubes. Grades 10 and below have a lapped and polished finish and are normally used only in pressurized lubrication systems where oil is constantly forced around the bearings.
In the higher tollerance bearings, grade 200 and better, matching lots is manditory. The ball to ball tollerance within a lot of grade 25 balls is 0.000025" however the balls can very from the listed nominal size by as much as 0.0001". All balls used in a bearing race must be changed when replacing balls, and all the balls used must come from the same lot. Otherwise you will have balls of different sizes in the bearing and all the load will go on the biggest ball, overloading the ball and the race.
Grade 25 is really an overkill for any bicycle application. But for the few pennies more they don't hurt. I am sure campy uses the 25's just because they feel smoother when spinning the hub by hand. (the look and feel of things are very important to the Italians) You don't have to have grade 25s until you start seeing 5000 RPM's or more, and this is only due to the heat buildup of rougher bearings at those speeds. Grade 10s are only needed in very high speed racing engines and such. We also made a few grade 3's that were used in jet turbine applications at 30,000 to 60,000 RPMs. Those bearings got real pricey, just measuring something within 0.000003 inches tooks some very special and expensive equipment.
Using too smooth of ball can cause lubrication problems. If the ball is too smooth it will not carry the oil or grease around as it rotates. Grade 10 may be a bad choice depending on the type of lubricant being used. For grades lower than 25 the finishing process of the balls change. Grade 200 to 25 have a ground finish and do a good job carrying oils and lubes. Grades 10 and below have a lapped and polished finish and are normally used only in pressurized lubrication systems where oil is constantly forced around the bearings.
Roger (who?) writes:
> Did you know you should only ever use ball bearings from the same
> batch in one side of a race? They're not exactly the same size
> between batches. Never simply replace that naughty one that bounced
> into the corner of the garage - replace the other 10 (or whatever)
> too!
You are making this up. The tolerance between bearing balls is so
small as to be below a small fraction of the elastic compliance of the
steel bearing. Besides, the races of bicycle bearings are so rough
that a tight bearing feels lumpy. In high precision bearings used on
computer disk storage devices, preload causes a smooth viscous drag.
Even for these bearings the balls are not identical but are made to a
prescribed tolerance. I don't believe I understand what you mean by
the same batch. Each bearing is not made in the same finishing
process as the others in a shipment of balls.
> Did you know you should only ever use ball bearings from the same
> batch in one side of a race? They're not exactly the same size
> between batches. Never simply replace that naughty one that bounced
> into the corner of the garage - replace the other 10 (or whatever)
> too!
You are making this up. The tolerance between bearing balls is so
small as to be below a small fraction of the elastic compliance of the
steel bearing. Besides, the races of bicycle bearings are so rough
that a tight bearing feels lumpy. In high precision bearings used on
computer disk storage devices, preload causes a smooth viscous drag.
Even for these bearings the balls are not identical but are made to a
prescribed tolerance. I don't believe I understand what you mean by
the same batch. Each bearing is not made in the same finishing
process as the others in a shipment of balls.
02-06-10 | 04:16 PM
#9
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,149
Likes: 76
From: Arlington, VA USA
The rear is really only a little more complicated. You do have to take the cassette (or freewheel) off, so you'll need the right tools to do that (chain whip & lock nut tool if you have a freehub; appropriate freewheel tool and a wrench if you have freewheel). But once you do that, you just work from the non drive side, take lock nut and cone out and slide the axle, with drive side cone and lock nut in place, out the other side. Often you'll have larger and fewer bearings in the rear so I find they tend to be easier to keep track of.
02-06-10 | 04:22 PM
#10
Thread Starter
Kid A
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,778
Likes: 5
From: Alexandria, VA
Yep, did it a few hours ago and everything you said was true. I worked from the non-drive side, ball bearings appear to be 1/4" maybe...? They were bigger, so it actually was easier. Now I just have to wait for my cone wrenches to arrive so I can adjust and ride!
02-06-10 | 04:29 PM
#11
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,559
Likes: 53
From: The 'Wack, BC, Canada
Bikes: Norco (2), Miyata, Canondale, Soma, Redline
For the home shop the Park flat double ended wrenches are fine. A little hard on the hands but they are fine.
Washing the balls in WD40 is a rather expensive way to do it. Now the WD is contaminated so you are limited where you can re-use it. Far better to use mineral spirits or low odor kerosene. WIth these solvents the particles will settle out overnight so you can keep using it despite it turning a tea like color from the oil and grease. Just decant off the clear liquid and leave the grunge in the bottom. When it gets so bad that the grunge won't settle out anymore then put it back into an empty solvent bottle and drop it off at a paint products recycling depot. But it takes quite a while before it gets that bad.
Washing the balls in WD40 is a rather expensive way to do it. Now the WD is contaminated so you are limited where you can re-use it. Far better to use mineral spirits or low odor kerosene. WIth these solvents the particles will settle out overnight so you can keep using it despite it turning a tea like color from the oil and grease. Just decant off the clear liquid and leave the grunge in the bottom. When it gets so bad that the grunge won't settle out anymore then put it back into an empty solvent bottle and drop it off at a paint products recycling depot. But it takes quite a while before it gets that bad.
02-06-10 | 04:36 PM
#12
Senior Member
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 744
Likes: 0
From: Portland Oregon
Bikes: '82 Giante super challange, 70 Gitane Tour de France, GT Gutterball
WD-40 is fine as long as you remember that its a solvent and that it is not a lubricant, as everyone has said reusing ball bearings is penny pinching and generaly not worth the savings. Also you don't need to soak them, if you are in desparate need to cleaning and reusing your ball bearings just squirt some on a rag and wipe them off, soaking is a huge waste of money
The subject of ball bearing grades (and the similarly related topic of ceramic v steel) has been covered at great lengths and most have come to the consensus that while higher grade bearings (and ceramics) do in fact provide better performance but only for professionals to whom 1/10ths of a second actualy do matter and that for any recreational rider grade 25 is pretty much as high as its worth it to go.
The subject of ball bearing grades (and the similarly related topic of ceramic v steel) has been covered at great lengths and most have come to the consensus that while higher grade bearings (and ceramics) do in fact provide better performance but only for professionals to whom 1/10ths of a second actualy do matter and that for any recreational rider grade 25 is pretty much as high as its worth it to go.
02-06-10 | 06:17 PM
#14
cab horn
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 28,353
Likes: 30
From: Toronto
Bikes: 1987 Bianchi Campione
