The term 'ceramic' is pretty generic, usually implying that the balls are ceramic. Myself, I have used cartridge bearings and they divide into hybrid bearings and full ceramic. Hybrid stands for races being steel and full for races being ceramic as well. In addition, there are different ceramic materials in use.

In my application, I started with hybrid, which solved the problem of the bearings seizing. However, the races still get tinted with rust. In the next round now (bearings waiting for installation) I am going again with hybrid, but now with stainless steel races. The problem with stainless steel is that it is softer than the chrome steel used otherwise. I will see how that works. After that I am likely to tinker with BB. Although my bearings there, now steel, are very well sealed, they get covered by rust after few years.

The rear derailleurs that employ ceramics, and you are correct that a lot of high line ones do, use bushings, not rolling element bearings, and do so for corrosion protection and abrasion resistance rather than for reduced friction.

sdean911: Thanks for your input. I feel the same way about not understanding why some feel 'duty bound' to rain on another's parade. If we posted a thread asking for people who ride RED bikes to respond, would these posters feel it necessary to tell us how wrong we are, and that everyone should ride BLUE ones? A real head-scratcher.:p

AGAIN, I am looking for those who have USED ceramics on their bikes. All the rest are just opinions.:deadhorse:

P.S. I respect your right to your opinion, as long as you do not try to use it as 'fact' to argue me into changing my opinion.

2_i: Thanks for your input. I agree 'ceramic' is pretty generic. I am using hybrid's with Si3N4 Grade 5 balls, and some with Grade 3 balls. So far, I have not seen any rusting, even after riding a century in a steady rain. Helped break in my B67 though!:thumb:

You seem willing to accept that ceramics have SOME value (Fact 2). Why is it so hard to accept that some of us have decided to try them for OURSELVES, and like how they work for us?:rolleyes:

Quite the opposite, ceramics have basically no value for a cyclist. As one other poster said, it is beyond a diminishing return and another poster joked you were going to start talking about homeopathy.

I have no problem accepting you want to try them for yourself, but when you turn around and tell others, including me, that ceramic bearings are something great and you only want anecdotal experiences and personal testimonies when you are in possession of the discrediting actual facts, well that to me seems like ignorance.

Some people enjoy that, not me - I leave you to it.

Did you research FSA's number? What do they mean by a "4%" reduction? Did you know that most of the drag from cartridge bearings come from the seals and sometimes overzealous lubrication? Could that 4% reduction be a comparison between unsealed and minimally lubricated bearings? If bearing losses are on the order of 1% of the total loss of a moving bicycle (air resistance is most of it and there's also rolling losses from the tires), and seal losses take up better than 90% of the bearing losses, how much is that 4% difference worth, in watts?

It is actually trivial to examine how much friction good dual-lipped seals and overzealous lubrication cost. Just try to turn a new Phil Wood hub with new bearings. It is surprisingly difficult to turn! Now try riding those hubs (as part of wheels of course). They're roll pretty much the same as any other nice sets of wheels! Yes, if you put them on a truing stand and spin them, they will stop quicker. But that's not how wheels are used! Put that frictional loss into the context of a bicycle system (with rider) and the difference gets lost in the noise.

"Quite the opposite, ceramics have basically no value for a cyclist."

In the military, when someone reverses himself, they call it an "about face". You did a real nice one there:rolleyes:

All good numbers,but have you actually USED ceramics on your bike? I know, "the cost is not worth the benefit". That may be true for you, but you should allow those who HAVE used them to share how the bearings worked for them, good or bad. I never asked for ONLY positive comments, since I was attempting to learn what did NOT work for others, too. Unfortunately, all the 'noise' I've been hearing is from posters who seem hell-bent on convincing anybody who will listen that THEY are the experts, and WE need to be saved from ourselves.

Before Columbus, the 'experts' KNEW the world was flat, and he would sail to his doom! Does not say much for 'expert' facts, does it?

BTW I heard a good definition of an 'expert'--an ex is a has-been, and a spurt is a drip under pressure, so does that make an expert a 'has-been drip under pressure'?

canopus: Thanks for your input. So far, of those with actual PERSONAL experience with ceramics on their bikes, there have been 6 reporting a positive result. One reported a negative result, and one used them, but did not believe they benefited his bike (?):rolleyes: One reported a positive result in rebuilding fishing reels.

Two (yourself included) have expressed interest in trying them. Of the seven reporting good result, 5 stated a positive result in longevity.

If you decide to try them, I would go for the hybrid bearings, with at least a Grade 5 balls. My choice is Enduro, but you can figure out which you want to buy.

I found it interesting (and informative) that one responder with positive results (both smoothness and longevity) rebuilds fishing reels. Talk about lower rpm's! If he had good results, there is hope for us all.

Of course, as you have found, there are those with NO PERSONAL EXPERIENCE who repeat plagarized "expert opinions" to attempt to disuade everyone else from using ceramics. Makes you wonder if they are REALLY using them, and do not want the rest of us to gain from trying them! Probably not, they just enjoy repeating other's opinions.

As I have stated, these are MY experiences, and MY opinions, so you can make up your own mind on the subject.

One aspect of the posts that I find interesting is that of unrealistic expectations regarding improvement in raw performance that a new development should bring. A friend of mine did research on increase in performance due to steroid intake in sports. His focus was baseball, not cycling, but I anticipate that the scales are similar. My friend's finding was that a 10-week high-dose steroid regiment yielded an average 3% increase in the speed of a hit ball. The reason why top athletes turn to the means, that are dangerous to their life, for seemingly measly gains, is because such an increase allows them to edge out over other top competitors. In competitive cycling, the athletes likely turn to dope after they have already exhausted the means of enhancing their performance by converting to ceramic bearings.

Incidentally, 5% of change in exerted power to maintain a given speed is what is experienced when changing from a bottle dynamo to a dynohub. There is no practical way ceramic bearings can yield this much. 1/10-1/5 of that? Maybe.

In any case, within a developed technology, in this case the bike design, progress relies on optimizing details, each providing small gains and these often buried in noise.

2_i: I know what you mean about dynamo bottle drag. I tried a couple different ones, and the light output was NO WHERE near as good as a regular headlight, and it felt like I was riding with the brakes on! I decided to stick with my Niterider MOAB HID, and use a solar cell setup to charge an ATV battery, with inverter, for charging all my batteries (laptop, cel phone, rechargeable AAA's for taillights, and the MOAB brick.

that might be great

Did your friend conduct the experiment on major leaguers? Did he use HGH or some steroids he bought from a local gym employee? How many test subjects did he use? Because if he gave scrubs sh@tty steroids it isnt going to create a better result. Major leaguers have efficient swings and used designer steroids. They produce alot of power already. Steroids plus efficiency plus high skill sets equal much better results. If you look at the amount of home runs in the steroid era of the top tiered batters compared to today and prior to the steroid era you will see a greater than 3% result. Your friends study was both illegal, wasteful, and probably used dreadfull scientific basis.

I am puzzled by the level of unprovoked forum rage and respond only as an exception. Indeed the result is surprising, but then this is why I brought it up - to tame the inflated expectations. Otherwise, I am neither a specialist on steroid use or baseball. From what I know, though, the particular study became a standard reference in the field and you can read the source yourself to find answers to your queries. Note added at the end provides a corrected estimate in the speed gain. I am unaware of a similar study done for other disciplines - the research is difficult for the reasons you invoke. However, the study illuminates the general issue why doping is so attractive for the top athletes, even when the quantitative gains are small. On the other hand, if you are from the ranks of global-warming deniers, the quoted source can hardly help you.

badamsjr - Your posts are bordering on trolldom... you already seem to have a pretty solid and established opinion on ceramic bearings and how much they have improved you cycling life and seem to be bashing and insulting those who have concluded that the improvements you get are not cost effective.

I don't run ceramic bearings in my bikes as grade 25 bearings are sufficient for cycling use and above industry standards... I log some insane miles when I am not turning wrenches and have never had an issue and those standard bearings have given me exceptional service life.

From a fabrication background, the only time ceramic bearings are used or needed is when those bearings have to sustain high rpm loads and high working temperatures and their little bit of extra round-ness over a grade 25 steel bearing is merely a benefit of how they are made. Their corrosion resistance is a plus but well sealed and lubricated bearings are also very resistant to washout... I built oilfield equipment and serviced high speed lathes, drills, and milling machines which all use steel bearings.

Oil bath lubrication is also preferable as it is better at flushing out contaminants... if you want to try something that is smoother than you ever imagined run an oil lubricated bottom bracket or hub.

I do work on bikes that have ceramic bearings and these tend to be pretty nice bikes that belong with folks who have deep pockets and are looking for that little extra they need in competitive situations.

Like Op said in post #2... they are a waste for normal cyclists and we could have stopped there as he knows his stuff backwards and forwards and also deals with bicycles on a daily basis.

I'm a lightweight cyclist in this crowd, but I don't see the huge harm in asking folks who have played with these bearings for their experiences.

Why all the hostility? Okay, they may or may not be "worth" the expense for the full ceramic bearings, but it seems like the hybrids are, at least, interesting.

I have an OMAS BB that I pulled out of an unused PX10, and I think trying the hybrids (when I find a frame with a french thread BB) will be an interesting experiment. The old bearings really need to be replaced. The cost for a pair of the hybrid bearings isn't ridiculous, and seems like it will be interesting and no harm to try. I am also very grateful to badamsjr for helping me with that OMAS BB in the first place. So, why not have a bit of fun? I haven't heard anyone say it will do worse.

I am certain that I'll gain little "real" difference, but it will just be fun to try something different with old hardware.


Gee, guys. Lighten up. Why can't people experiment, and then ask if others have done so?

It seems like lots of people have OPINIONS about this subject, but few have actually USED ceramics. The naysayers have stated:
1) Not worth the price
2) no Real benefit
3) We (those actually USING them) are fools for spending our fortunes on them

As informative as this has been, the responders with USE of ceramics have been hugely outnumbered by those who were expressly NOT invited. That tells me that either they can not read, could not understand, or do not care that their OPINIONS were unwelcome.

Troolldom? If a person is specificaly asked NOT to attend a function, and shows up anyway, is the host a Troll to ask this person to leave?

I can understand that some might be upset for being excluded, since their OPINION has to be more valid than someone's EXPERIENCE, but they are still unwelcome, having no PERSONAL experience to share. As I have said, not having USED ceramics, they have nothing of value to share in this thread.

If you do not like what I have to say, then go bother someone else.:deadhorse2:

The person beating the deadhorse here is you with your non-stop ranting about people posting what does not meet your approval.
Here is a newflash: Tom Stormecrowe runs this site, and not you.
Any of us are free to post as long as we abide by Tom's rules, and not yours.
If you can't live with that, then go start your own site.

badamsjr: I suggest that you do not respond to the flaming posts. Your attempts to respond in a rational manner encourages more of those. Anonymity and the lack of any threshold to meet makes these forums often an unpleasant place to converse. Personally I keep a list of usernames that I should not touch under any circumstances. This convening at a personal level makes life in these quarters a lot easier. Not surprisingly, my list grew much in size on account of this thread.

2_i: +1 Noted and much appreciated.

I can't believe you guys are still at it. Frankly, if you think this is bad, bring up the double vs triple crankset. That always get them going.

Spend your money to entertain yourself, and if others want to bash you for not thinking their way then just smile and let them talk. I said before that the benifit goes beyond speed or endurance. None of us need carbon frames or fancy wheels yet we buy them.

For the non ceramic people; when you call someone a fool for wasting his money you are being rude and for no good reason. Just ask yourself how would you react if I told you that you were a fool for doing whatever it is you do? Wouldn't you get defensive?

All the OP asked is what people with ceramic bearings experianced. The only mistake he made was not ignoring your opinions.

Greg

i see both sides of the argument....both sides have been covered with great zealous and I wouldnt be offended if the thread were closed....

no offense to the op......

sdean911: +1
indybiker01: +1 Is closing the thread something a Mod has to do or?