Why did we move from 27" to 700c?
#26
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 33,656
Bikes: '96 Litespeed Catalyst, '05 Litespeed Firenze, '06 Litespeed Tuscany, '20 Surly Midnight Special, All are 3x10. It is hilly around here!
Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2026 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1,096 Times
in
742 Posts
To some extent this is done. Georgina Terry sold bikes with 24" front wheels to her small women customers and some small frame bikes do come with 650C wheels. However, this can be an inventory nightmare for most bike shops so the intermediate sizes are going to be hard to find.
#27
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: A Coffin Called Earth. or Toronto, ON
Posts: 12,257
Bikes: Bianchi, Miyata, Dahon, Rossin
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times
in
5 Posts
measures sold in canada have both markings.
__________________
Food for thought: if you aren't dead by 2050, you and your entire family will be within a few years from starvation. Now that is a cruel gift to leave for your offspring. ;)
https://sanfrancisco.ibtimes.com/arti...ger-photos.htm
Food for thought: if you aren't dead by 2050, you and your entire family will be within a few years from starvation. Now that is a cruel gift to leave for your offspring. ;)
https://sanfrancisco.ibtimes.com/arti...ger-photos.htm
#28
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: A Coffin Called Earth. or Toronto, ON
Posts: 12,257
Bikes: Bianchi, Miyata, Dahon, Rossin
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times
in
5 Posts
OK, lets extrapolate further and have 24" wheels for riders between 5'3" and 4'10" and 20" (ISO 451) for even shorter riders.
To some extent this is done. Georgina Terry sold bikes with 24" front wheels to her small women customers and some small frame bikes do come with 650C wheels. However, this can be an inventory nightmare for most bike shops so the intermediate sizes are going to be hard to find.
To some extent this is done. Georgina Terry sold bikes with 24" front wheels to her small women customers and some small frame bikes do come with 650C wheels. However, this can be an inventory nightmare for most bike shops so the intermediate sizes are going to be hard to find.
the opposite is you alienate riders who don't fit on 'standard' sizes.
Besides, cars get this huge selection of rims and tires, but they don't have inventory problems.
__________________
Food for thought: if you aren't dead by 2050, you and your entire family will be within a few years from starvation. Now that is a cruel gift to leave for your offspring. ;)
https://sanfrancisco.ibtimes.com/arti...ger-photos.htm
Food for thought: if you aren't dead by 2050, you and your entire family will be within a few years from starvation. Now that is a cruel gift to leave for your offspring. ;)
https://sanfrancisco.ibtimes.com/arti...ger-photos.htm
#29
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 33,656
Bikes: '96 Litespeed Catalyst, '05 Litespeed Firenze, '06 Litespeed Tuscany, '20 Surly Midnight Special, All are 3x10. It is hilly around here!
Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2026 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1,096 Times
in
742 Posts
In the 70s quality bikes started coming out of Japan. They never used either 27" or 700c as a major standard for their home market & still don't. The Japanese manufacturers of the day - like today's Taiwanese manufacturers - would put any size wheel and tire on the bikes your contract called for.
The sports/racing/serious adult bike market has used 700C wheels for many decades world wide and that's what eventually became the standard here.
#30
Full Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: PA, USA
Posts: 213
Bikes: Emonda SLR, Salsa Warbird carbon
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
#31
Mad bike riding scientist
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 27,366
Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones
Mentioned: 152 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6219 Post(s)
Liked 4,221 Times
in
2,367 Posts
Lemmyguess, a ludite? Gonna go out and smash the looms tonight?
__________________
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
#32
Guest
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Grid Reference, SK
Posts: 3,768
Bikes: I never learned to ride a bike. It is my deepest shame.
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times
in
6 Posts
There is really no good reason the switch occured.
There is a bad reason of course.
Industry realized that there is not a lot of profit in steel bikes because they last a long time and people loved them. They started making aluminum and then carbon frames that gave no significant or meaningful advantage to the cycling world. Moving away from quality and longevity into a more disposable market which consequently made more profit. That was the end of the road for the 27'(630) wheel.
Sad but true.
On a side note.
If you are into numerology, you'll notice that both 27' or 630 mm make #9.(2+7=9 or 6+3+0=9). Also, If you keep adding 9's you'll always get a 9. For example 9+9=18(1+8=9) 18+18=36(3+6=9) 36+36=72,,,, and it goes on like that forever. This is not possible with any other number. Talk about a perfect circle. The sacred geometry. 360 degrees.
There is a bad reason of course.
Industry realized that there is not a lot of profit in steel bikes because they last a long time and people loved them. They started making aluminum and then carbon frames that gave no significant or meaningful advantage to the cycling world. Moving away from quality and longevity into a more disposable market which consequently made more profit. That was the end of the road for the 27'(630) wheel.
Sad but true.
On a side note.
If you are into numerology, you'll notice that both 27' or 630 mm make #9.(2+7=9 or 6+3+0=9). Also, If you keep adding 9's you'll always get a 9. For example 9+9=18(1+8=9) 18+18=36(3+6=9) 36+36=72,,,, and it goes on like that forever. This is not possible with any other number. Talk about a perfect circle. The sacred geometry. 360 degrees.
#34
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 38,725
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Mentioned: 140 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5793 Post(s)
Liked 2,584 Times
in
1,432 Posts
It's possible that you're asking the wrong question. It may not be about why 27" went away, but why it ever existed in the first place.
Europeans were riding on tires based on the 700c platforms for decades while Americans were mainly still riding 26x1.75 coaster brake bikes, and calling 3-speed 26 x 1-3/8" British bikes "English Racers" Of course there was always a small race and sport community but it was very small. Up until the mid sixties, there were also small numbers of French and Italian (700c) derailleur bikes coming in, but you'd only see them in certain markets.
I don't know if they created the size, or not, (I'd love to hear from some Brit old timers about the tire sizes of their Carltons, Dawes, and Raleigh Clubmans of the fifties and early sixties) but you didn't see 27" bikes in any numbers in the USA until the mid sixties when the folks at Schwinn, saw the growing niche and jumped in with 27" Schwinn Continentals. I remember touring in New England in the sixties on an Italian bike - 28x1-5/8 (700c) - and needing to carry lots of spare parts including tires, because parts for "dem skinny furrin bikes" weren't available except in the bigger cities.
Eventually, because of the strength of their dealer network, Schwinn legitimized derailleur bikes, and importers Americanized their bikes moving from 700c to 27" in the late sixties, where things stayed until the markets got more global, and it no longer made sense to support a USA only size.
There's no rational argument about quality, or better ride. It's simply a matter of globalization, and the economics of supporting 2 platforms vs. one, kinda like what happened to the Beta format in video.
E
Europeans were riding on tires based on the 700c platforms for decades while Americans were mainly still riding 26x1.75 coaster brake bikes, and calling 3-speed 26 x 1-3/8" British bikes "English Racers" Of course there was always a small race and sport community but it was very small. Up until the mid sixties, there were also small numbers of French and Italian (700c) derailleur bikes coming in, but you'd only see them in certain markets.
I don't know if they created the size, or not, (I'd love to hear from some Brit old timers about the tire sizes of their Carltons, Dawes, and Raleigh Clubmans of the fifties and early sixties) but you didn't see 27" bikes in any numbers in the USA until the mid sixties when the folks at Schwinn, saw the growing niche and jumped in with 27" Schwinn Continentals. I remember touring in New England in the sixties on an Italian bike - 28x1-5/8 (700c) - and needing to carry lots of spare parts including tires, because parts for "dem skinny furrin bikes" weren't available except in the bigger cities.
Eventually, because of the strength of their dealer network, Schwinn legitimized derailleur bikes, and importers Americanized their bikes moving from 700c to 27" in the late sixties, where things stayed until the markets got more global, and it no longer made sense to support a USA only size.
There's no rational argument about quality, or better ride. It's simply a matter of globalization, and the economics of supporting 2 platforms vs. one, kinda like what happened to the Beta format in video.
E
__________________
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
Last edited by FBinNY; 08-30-10 at 09:05 AM.
#35
Peripheral Visionary
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Jax, FL
Posts: 1,157
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times
in
5 Posts
I agree that many of the high tech bikes are disposable, compared to the bikes of yesteryear... but I fail to see the connection with wheel size. If manufacturers want to make a 'disposable' frame they can make it fit any wheel, and they can make a disposable tire in any size. Also, I have seen expensive racing tires in 27 and 700C AND I have personally purchased $12 crap-ola tires in bike 27 and 700C
If the newer bikes start coming with a different wheel size, a customer is more likely to get a new bike and have more tire choices in the long run. Who wants to deal with only 3 different sizes for 27 wheel smallest being 27 1 1/8 which you can mostly get on the internet nowadays? I do, but most riders don't. In most bike shops there is only 27 1 1/4 tire available. Like I said, marketing tactics. I have only one bike that's 25 years old and I see nothing wrong with it except that I can't simply walk into a bike shop and get a 1/8 tire.
I wouldn't be surprised if in the next 5 years a new wheel size is introduced.
Last edited by spock; 08-30-10 at 09:47 AM.
#36
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: St Peters, Missouri
Posts: 30,225
Bikes: Catrike 559 I own some others but they don't get ridden very much.
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1572 Post(s)
Liked 643 Times
in
364 Posts
I remember this time very well. I was in grade school and junior high at the time (the '70's). I thought the Metric system was something new and exciting for me and I was very disappointed when ignorant Americans were simply too lazy, in my opinion, to change. This was, and still is, a national embarrassment.
What size engine does your car have?
Take any medications?
Buy a bottle of soda or booze lately?
#37
Banned
World has adopted the 559 26" wheel pretty universally by now .
many globe spanning travelers find 26" spare tires in remote locales..
406 20" is another common tire size that you have to be in a very strange place to not find.
many globe spanning travelers find 26" spare tires in remote locales..
406 20" is another common tire size that you have to be in a very strange place to not find.
#38
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 33,656
Bikes: '96 Litespeed Catalyst, '05 Litespeed Firenze, '06 Litespeed Tuscany, '20 Surly Midnight Special, All are 3x10. It is hilly around here!
Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2026 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1,096 Times
in
742 Posts
I, for one, think there are too many sizes && too much confusion !
Go to Sheldon Brown's web site and look up the article on "Tire Sizing". He lists 31(!) different ISO standard rim sizes of which 29 are bicycle related. Add various tire widths available in many of these rim diameters and the number of tire models gets to be monumental.
#42
Senior Member
650B was not a new size, it is an old French size that was eclipsed by the 700C size, however it did not die out. Try looking at the Rivendell or Velo-Orange web sites, and you will see 650B is alive and well. The smaller rim diameter allows for more clearance for a wider tire, and a somewhat more comfortable ride. I built a set of wheels last year, and I am lacing up another set now.
#43
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: A Coffin Called Earth. or Toronto, ON
Posts: 12,257
Bikes: Bianchi, Miyata, Dahon, Rossin
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times
in
5 Posts
Mile in french is Mille
well okay, 'Inch' is 'Ponce' in french
__________________
Food for thought: if you aren't dead by 2050, you and your entire family will be within a few years from starvation. Now that is a cruel gift to leave for your offspring. ;)
https://sanfrancisco.ibtimes.com/arti...ger-photos.htm
Food for thought: if you aren't dead by 2050, you and your entire family will be within a few years from starvation. Now that is a cruel gift to leave for your offspring. ;)
https://sanfrancisco.ibtimes.com/arti...ger-photos.htm
#44
Real Men Ride Ordinaries
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,723
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
3 Posts
#45
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 7,487
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 140 Post(s)
Liked 163 Times
in
89 Posts
650B is showing up on a few brands' mountain bikes as well. Right between the 26er and 29er. I've not tried one; some say they're great, others say it's not enough difference to warrant yet another BSD for mountain bikes. Here's Jamis' version:
https://www.jamisbikes.com/usa/thebik...akar650b2.html
https://www.jamisbikes.com/usa/thebik...akar650b2.html
#47
headtube.
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 803
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
3 Posts
650B was not a new size, it is an old French size that was eclipsed by the 700C size, however it did not die out. Try looking at the Rivendell or Velo-Orange web sites, and you will see 650B is alive and well. The smaller rim diameter allows for more clearance for a wider tire, and a somewhat more comfortable ride. I built a set of wheels last year, and I am lacing up another set now.
#48
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 33,656
Bikes: '96 Litespeed Catalyst, '05 Litespeed Firenze, '06 Litespeed Tuscany, '20 Surly Midnight Special, All are 3x10. It is hilly around here!
Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2026 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1,096 Times
in
742 Posts
My point is that there are really no truly NEW sizes available since the ISO size range goes from 137 to 637 mm with practically no significant gaps. About all that can happen is someone trying to drag out something old and make it "the next big thing".
#49
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 273
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
#50
rebmeM roineS
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Metro Indy, IN
Posts: 16,216
Bikes: Bacchetta Giro A20, RANS V-Rex, RANS Screamer
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 653 Post(s)
Liked 347 Times
in
226 Posts
Because weight-based calculations for pharmacy drug dosing uses only metric numbers, hospitals are 'fixing' patient scales so that they cannot be switched from kilogram to pound readouts. Don't worry, you can still get switchable scales from WalMart.
__________________
Bacchetta Giro A20, RANS V-Rex, RANS Screamer
Bacchetta Giro A20, RANS V-Rex, RANS Screamer