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Why did we move from 27" to 700c?

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Why did we move from 27" to 700c?

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Old 08-30-10, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by AEO
I'm all for proportional wheels.

700c for riders taller than 5'9
650c for riders taller than 5'6
26" for riders taller than 5'3

big wheels are harder to fit into frames, compared to smaller ones.
In fact, someone ought to make 750c (ISO 700) for riders over 6'0"
OK, lets extrapolate further and have 24" wheels for riders between 5'3" and 4'10" and 20" (ISO 451) for even shorter riders.

To some extent this is done. Georgina Terry sold bikes with 24" front wheels to her small women customers and some small frame bikes do come with 650C wheels. However, this can be an inventory nightmare for most bike shops so the intermediate sizes are going to be hard to find.
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Old 08-30-10, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Phil_gretz
I received my metric tape measure as an industry gift from Russian counterparts. I use it almost every day to set seat heights, etc.
measures sold in canada have both markings.
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Old 08-30-10, 06:46 AM
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Originally Posted by HillRider
OK, lets extrapolate further and have 24" wheels for riders between 5'3" and 4'10" and 20" (ISO 451) for even shorter riders.

To some extent this is done. Georgina Terry sold bikes with 24" front wheels to her small women customers and some small frame bikes do come with 650C wheels. However, this can be an inventory nightmare for most bike shops so the intermediate sizes are going to be hard to find.
16", 20", 24", 26", 700c are common enough.

the opposite is you alienate riders who don't fit on 'standard' sizes.

Besides, cars get this huge selection of rims and tires, but they don't have inventory problems.
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Old 08-30-10, 06:50 AM
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Originally Posted by tcs
In the 70s quality bikes started coming out of Japan. They never used either 27" or 700c as a major standard for their home market & still don't. The Japanese manufacturers of the day - like today's Taiwanese manufacturers - would put any size wheel and tire on the bikes your contract called for.
Their major home market was for utility bikes and not road or racing bikes, so they used a "baloon tire" of some size that was neither 700C not 27" The US market at the time was also mostly for cruisers and single speed bikes using some often proprietary wheel and tire size that, again, wasn't either 700c or 27" (ISO 630)

The sports/racing/serious adult bike market has used 700C wheels for many decades world wide and that's what eventually became the standard here.
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Old 08-30-10, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by c.miller64
Lemmyguess, a progressive?
The metric system is the official system of measurement in all countries except Burma, Liberia, and the USA.
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Old 08-30-10, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by c.miller64
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Old 08-30-10, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by spock
There is really no good reason the switch occured.

There is a bad reason of course.

Industry realized that there is not a lot of profit in steel bikes because they last a long time and people loved them. They started making aluminum and then carbon frames that gave no significant or meaningful advantage to the cycling world. Moving away from quality and longevity into a more disposable market which consequently made more profit. That was the end of the road for the 27'(630) wheel.

Sad but true.

On a side note.
If you are into numerology, you'll notice that both 27' or 630 mm make #9.(2+7=9 or 6+3+0=9). Also, If you keep adding 9's you'll always get a 9. For example 9+9=18(1+8=9) 18+18=36(3+6=9) 36+36=72,,,, and it goes on like that forever. This is not possible with any other number. Talk about a perfect circle. The sacred geometry. 360 degrees.
I agree that many of the high tech bikes are disposable, compared to the bikes of yesteryear... but I fail to see the connection with wheel size. If manufacturers want to make a 'disposable' frame they can make it fit any wheel, and they can make a disposable tire in any size. Also, I have seen expensive racing tires in 27 and 700C AND I have personally purchased $12 crap-ola tires in bike 27 and 700C
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Old 08-30-10, 08:07 AM
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I, for one, think there are too many sizes && too much confusion !
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Old 08-30-10, 08:31 AM
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It's possible that you're asking the wrong question. It may not be about why 27" went away, but why it ever existed in the first place.

Europeans were riding on tires based on the 700c platforms for decades while Americans were mainly still riding 26x1.75 coaster brake bikes, and calling 3-speed 26 x 1-3/8" British bikes "English Racers" Of course there was always a small race and sport community but it was very small. Up until the mid sixties, there were also small numbers of French and Italian (700c) derailleur bikes coming in, but you'd only see them in certain markets.

I don't know if they created the size, or not, (I'd love to hear from some Brit old timers about the tire sizes of their Carltons, Dawes, and Raleigh Clubmans of the fifties and early sixties) but you didn't see 27" bikes in any numbers in the USA until the mid sixties when the folks at Schwinn, saw the growing niche and jumped in with 27" Schwinn Continentals. I remember touring in New England in the sixties on an Italian bike - 28x1-5/8 (700c) - and needing to carry lots of spare parts including tires, because parts for "dem skinny furrin bikes" weren't available except in the bigger cities.

Eventually, because of the strength of their dealer network, Schwinn legitimized derailleur bikes, and importers Americanized their bikes moving from 700c to 27" in the late sixties, where things stayed until the markets got more global, and it no longer made sense to support a USA only size.

There's no rational argument about quality, or better ride. It's simply a matter of globalization, and the economics of supporting 2 platforms vs. one, kinda like what happened to the Beta format in video.

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Old 08-30-10, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by LarDasse74
I agree that many of the high tech bikes are disposable, compared to the bikes of yesteryear... but I fail to see the connection with wheel size. If manufacturers want to make a 'disposable' frame they can make it fit any wheel, and they can make a disposable tire in any size. Also, I have seen expensive racing tires in 27 and 700C AND I have personally purchased $12 crap-ola tires in bike 27 and 700C

If the newer bikes start coming with a different wheel size, a customer is more likely to get a new bike and have more tire choices in the long run. Who wants to deal with only 3 different sizes for 27 wheel smallest being 27 1 1/8 which you can mostly get on the internet nowadays? I do, but most riders don't. In most bike shops there is only 27 1 1/4 tire available. Like I said, marketing tactics. I have only one bike that's 25 years old and I see nothing wrong with it except that I can't simply walk into a bike shop and get a 1/8 tire.

I wouldn't be surprised if in the next 5 years a new wheel size is introduced.

Last edited by spock; 08-30-10 at 09:47 AM.
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Old 08-30-10, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by smurfy
I remember this time very well. I was in grade school and junior high at the time (the '70's). I thought the Metric system was something new and exciting for me and I was very disappointed when ignorant Americans were simply too lazy, in my opinion, to change. This was, and still is, a national embarrassment.
It's coming. It's just coming a lot more slowly than I would have guessed.
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Old 08-30-10, 10:03 AM
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World has adopted the 559 26" wheel pretty universally by now .
many globe spanning travelers find 26" spare tires in remote locales..

406 20" is another common tire size that you have to be in a very strange place to not find.
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Old 08-30-10, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by spock
I wouldn't be surprised if in the next 5 years a new wheel size is introduced.
Sheldon Brown tried that a few years ago with the 650B (ISO 584) wheels. Apparently it never gained any serious audience and I haven't seen anything about it in quite a while.

I, for one, think there are too many sizes && too much confusion !
This is hardly new and, if anything, there are now fewer commercially available sizes to deal with than in the past.

Go to Sheldon Brown's web site and look up the article on "Tire Sizing". He lists 31(!) different ISO standard rim sizes of which 29 are bicycle related. Add various tire widths available in many of these rim diameters and the number of tire models gets to be monumental.
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Old 08-30-10, 10:07 AM
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Old 08-30-10, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by AEO
measures sold in canada have both markings.
That used to be the case here as well. My only metric rule is one that was a giveaway from a local auto parts supply store, it has the 1968 Detroit Tigers schedule printed on it.
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Old 08-30-10, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by AEO
measures sold in canada have both markings.
That is so Canadian. Does it come in French too?



Someday we may see 29ers taking over too. I heard 26" wheels may be inadequate.
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Old 08-30-10, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by HillRider
Sheldon Brown tried that a few years ago with the 650B (ISO 584) wheels. Apparently it never gained any serious audience and I haven't seen anything about it in quite a while.

650B was not a new size, it is an old French size that was eclipsed by the 700C size, however it did not die out. Try looking at the Rivendell or Velo-Orange web sites, and you will see 650B is alive and well. The smaller rim diameter allows for more clearance for a wider tire, and a somewhat more comfortable ride. I built a set of wheels last year, and I am lacing up another set now.
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Old 08-30-10, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by wunderkind
That is so Canadian. Does it come in French too?



Someday we may see 29ers taking over too. I heard 26" wheels may be inadequate.
the magical thing about measurement units in metric, is that it's already french to begin with. and imperial units in french are simply spelt different, but not confusingly.

Mile in french is Mille

well okay, 'Inch' is 'Ponce' in french
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Old 08-30-10, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by spock
I wouldn't be surprised if in the next 5 years a new wheel size is introduced.
Already happened.
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Old 08-30-10, 12:05 PM
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650B is showing up on a few brands' mountain bikes as well. Right between the 26er and 29er. I've not tried one; some say they're great, others say it's not enough difference to warrant yet another BSD for mountain bikes. Here's Jamis' version:

https://www.jamisbikes.com/usa/thebik...akar650b2.html
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Old 08-30-10, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by tizeye
So people could write in Craigslist..."27" bike for sale, like new condition" whic only illustrated that they hadn't a clue about sizing a bike. If they didn would have noted that had a 22, 23, or 24" frame as they were sized back then
especially annoying for someone looking for the rare 27" frame
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Old 08-30-10, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by ironwood
650B was not a new size, it is an old French size that was eclipsed by the 700C size, however it did not die out. Try looking at the Rivendell or Velo-Orange web sites, and you will see 650B is alive and well. The smaller rim diameter allows for more clearance for a wider tire, and a somewhat more comfortable ride. I built a set of wheels last year, and I am lacing up another set now.
if anything 650b has become bigger for mountain bikes than for velo-orange/rivendell type rambler bikes. Some of the rolling advantages of 29" without as many awkward geometry problems for un-tall riders. Disc brakes make it easy to screw around with rim sizes.
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Old 08-30-10, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by ironwood
650B was not a new size, it is an old French size that was eclipsed by the 700C size.....
I knew it wasn't new, just a revival of an obsolete size.

My point is that there are really no truly NEW sizes available since the ISO size range goes from 137 to 637 mm with practically no significant gaps. About all that can happen is someone trying to drag out something old and make it "the next big thing".
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Old 08-30-10, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by spock
Who wants to deal with only 3 different sizes for 27 wheel smallest being 27 1 1/8 which you can mostly get on the internet nowadays?
I noticed recently on biketiresdirect.com that they had a 27 x 1 tire for sale.
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Old 08-30-10, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Retro Grouch
It's coming. It's just coming a lot more slowly than I would have guessed.
What size engine does your car have?
Take any medications?
Buy a bottle of soda or booze lately?
Because weight-based calculations for pharmacy drug dosing uses only metric numbers, hospitals are 'fixing' patient scales so that they cannot be switched from kilogram to pound readouts. Don't worry, you can still get switchable scales from WalMart.
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