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Is a 1 x 10 practical?

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Is a 1 x 10 practical?

Old 07-22-11, 05:27 PM
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tomfer
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Is a 1 x 10 practical?

I'm building a rain-bike and need some real-world advice on the drive train. (I've ordered a light-weight cyclocross frame with disk-brake mounts, fender mounts and enough clearance for fenders and 700c x 38 if I want to go that big.) So far, so good!

I live in the hills here, - and although I'm not decrepit, - I swim laps and roller blade too, - I am old as dirt and need to be cautious about knees and hips. Yup. Sucks.

Anyway, I've been cranking numbers into Sheldon Brown's gear calculator, - taking notes on what gears I use on my 3 x 8 mountain bike and my road bike, - to get up the hills to my house, - as well as cruising, - cranking those into the gear calculator too, - and I decided that I could get by nicely with a 1 x 10 if I use a 11-36 cassette and a 24 chain ring.

So much for theory.

All the LBS mechanics, - but one, - are pretty glib about how that "should" work. Me? I'm not so sure. I used to drop my chain quite a bit on an old 3 x 8 Specialized when I used that as my winter bike. It wasn't set up perfectly, I admit that. But I vividly remember not enjoying re-chaining in rainy, cold weather. Also, I have a history of ignoring drive train maintenance in the winter. My excuse is that I'm a busy caregiver. But the truth is that I just love jumping on my bike and getting the hell out of the house. Of course, I might turn over a new leaf and take my bike in to LBS's more often.

Anyway, wouldn't it be great to have a single in the front? I'd love that. But not if it is going to cause me grief. I can swallow my pride and do a double.

Edit: If high end drive-train components can help, I don't mind spending the mulla. Maybe I can deduct it as a necessary medical expense.

Tom
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Old 07-22-11, 05:55 PM
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Personally, I'd go for a 2x5 half-step setup. It just seems less fiddly, with sturdier chain and with less cross-chain issues. I can't see why a 1x10 shouldn't work though, except that you may need a chain guide up front.
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Old 07-22-11, 06:02 PM
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A 1x10 should work but there are some reservations. I recommend mounting the single chainring on the inside of the main spider arm, but that pretty much precludes using a 24T chainring which requires a 74 mm bcd or smaller. If you mount that ring at the granny position you are going to be badly cross-chained in any of the smaller cogs. Also, a 24x11 is only a 59 gear-inch high gear which is awfully low and a 24x36 low gear is 18 gear inches and is the sort of low only heavily laden bike tourists in mountainous areas need. Are you sure of your calculations?

A 38T chainring, which will fit a 130 mm BCD road crank, gives a 93 gear-inch high and a 28 gear-inch low which is a decent range. A 34T chainring, which will fit a 110 mm BCD, gives an 83 gear-inch high and a 25 gear-inch low which should satisfy even bad knees. Both of these rings could be mounted on the inside of the large spider and make the chain line respectable across the entire cassette.

No matter what you do, fit a chainwatcher on the inside or, better yet, install a front derailleur and fix it's position centered over the single chainring.
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Old 07-22-11, 06:49 PM
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24T chainring and 11-36 cassette?
I wouldn't do it.

smaller gears accelerate chainwear and also the gears themselves, which would defeat the purpose of reduced maintenance. It's much better to have at least two chainrings up front where you can have a larger chainring using a larger cog in the back, which reduces wear and tear on the drivetrain.

There is also the issue of the jump in gear ratios, but the issue is not as pronounced on smaller chainrings and lower speeds. Typically, you don't want more than 10% jumps above 60 gear inches, because it gets harder to maintain an optimal cadence.
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Old 07-22-11, 08:48 PM
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I'm all for 1 by X setups, they work very well for a large number of purposes, but I think you're pushing the limits here. I'm not entirely sure that a 10 speed cassette is your best option, especially for a rain bike, cutting back to 8 or 9 speeds would likely give you a much longer chain life and lower maintainance.

A 24 tooth chainring is tiny, I have bikes whose lowest gear would be higher than that high gear; I would suggest upping it to a 34, it would make finding the appropriate crank easier too.

Don't worry too much about chainline, the great thing about a 1*X set up is that you can use different length bottom brackets to get the chainring exactly lined up with the middle of the cassette. There really isn't any cross chaining to speak of. Throwing chains can be an issue, but there are a multitude of solutions. Paul makes a thing that's pretty much a stripped down front derailer, you can strip down a front derailer, or you can use something like Salsas 'Crossing Guards.' They all work.
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Old 07-22-11, 10:47 PM
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If that was a typo and you meant 34t, you're golden. Otherwise...
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Old 07-22-11, 11:22 PM
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1x10 is ******g stupid. 2x5 properly set up gets you the same gears, the same range, and does it in a narrower package with a thicker, stronger chain.

In fact, it's what the cognoscenti call a






wait for it







ten-speed.


I don't disagree with the one-by concept. It's a good idea and I have a couple bikes of my own set up that way. But ten in the back is just... redonk.
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Old 07-22-11, 11:43 PM
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I surrender to better thinking. And as an engineer, I grimaced at the thought of that chain doing mechanical gymnastics. But don't we love testing the limits of what is possible?

Thanks for the comment on fiddling with bracket lengths to best locate the chain-ring(s) to optimize the chainline. Great! Very educational!

Thanks for asking me to re-check my gear calculations. As to the 24x11 only giving me a 59 gear-inch high gear, I agree. That was a bit of whistling in the dark and I needed someone to question that.

As to the 24x36 low gear, I do need that. Not often, - but here where they have built houses on the sides of hills and the roads occasionally swoooop up sharply, - those are locations where I do need serious mountain-bike gearing.

I was returning home today on my very light weight road bike, - I was in a 34-34 combination giving me 26 gear-inches, - and I admit, it wasn't bad at all. But I just sat there in very slo-mo - bored - and this isn't the steepest hill around here that I'd like to ascend.

Maybe I should re-phrase my question: After decades and decades of riding boring bikes, I now have a very light weight, carbon road bike that I can use on dry days and it totally thrills me with it's effortless speed and crisp shifting. That's probably why my hip is so sore - you don't know when to stop! So, I don't need another bike like that. I guess I want to make my rain bike into a climbing fool. It'll have a titanium frame, so why not have some fun here? Make this an interesting project. Let's juice it for all it has. Stretch the limits.

So I need help again. Let's do a double up front. How odd-ball would it be to create a 20 gear-inch ratio? Assuming I'm not too tired to do the calc, it would seem that a 28x36 would do that. Did I miss the boat? Other issues? Complications? Better solutions?

Tom
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Old 07-23-11, 12:13 AM
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Since you seem to have cash to bash, consider an IGH with cassette.
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Old 07-23-11, 12:42 AM
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Touring cyclist chiming in here. Many of us use 24t chainrings with 11-34 cassettes. As 10 speed mountain is relatively new, 11-36 is unexplored territory (atleast) on these forums. What I can tell you based on Shimano's published information is as follows:

11-36 is avaliable only on the 10 speed Shimano Dynasys mountain components. You need a Dynasys mountain rear derailleur. Regular mountain derailleurs can only accomodate sprockets as large as 34. As Shimano has a history of providing overly conservative derailleur capacity data, whether or not non-Dynasys RDs can accomodate 36t sprockets is unknown. My guess would be yes.

If you plan on using road (that is to say integrated, bar end, or downtube) indexed shifters, you must use a non-Dynasys mountain derailleur. The Dynasys derailleurs use a different cable pull ratio and are only compatible with Dynasys trigger shifters. A ten speed road shifter will work with a non-Dynasys rear derailleur on a 10 speed cassette.

Touring cyclists using 74-130BCD (regular road triple) cranksets often use 24, 38, 48 (or 46) chainrings. The lower two rings are the smallest sizes the BCDs will accomodate.

I'm not aware of any single chainring cranks with a BCD small enough to accomodate 28t rings. Maybe someone can chime in on this. You can get 104mm BCD single chainring cranks, allowing a minimum of 32t. These are commonly paired with bashguards, and if you wish, a chain guide such as the N-gear Jumpstop on the seat tube. This setup will eliminate chain drops.

Your best bet is use a regular road triple crankset, mount the 28t ring on the inner location, and use a long spindled bottom bracket to improve the chainline as much as possible.

Or just get an internally geared hub.

Last edited by Yan; 07-23-11 at 01:00 AM.
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Old 07-23-11, 12:52 AM
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10 speed cassettes and chains are a lot more expensive
and they are consumables with milage, so you will go thru many..

ask your self about the Ratios you use , will you die with one less cog?
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Old 07-23-11, 01:33 AM
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I'm not totally against the 1x10, but I do agree with most that anything from a 2x5 to 2x8 will be a much better system. Whatever you do, don't use a 24T as your only ring. I have single speed mountain bikes setup with approximately a 2/1 gear ratio. I can't imagine that as my highest gear on a geared bike, especially one that sees pavement.

Originally Posted by tomfer View Post
As to the 24x36 low gear, I do need that. Not often, - but here where they have built houses on the sides of hills and the roads occasionally swoooop up sharply, - those are locations where I do need serious mountain-bike gearing.
Seriously? Are you pulling a trailer or something? I've never had a bike with a gear that low and I feel like I'd tip over trying to go that slow. Before you completely sacrifice all high gears take another look and see how much you really need that 24x36. Maybe you do, but that would surprise me very much.
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Old 07-23-11, 03:26 AM
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I'd go with a mountain triple and replace the large chainring with a chainguard, so you could have say 22/32 up front. Then throw an 8spd cassette on, say 11-34. The 22/34 combo will give you the billy goat climbing year (it's even slightly easier than 24/36). And you'd be using common and easy-to-find parts.

I know what you mean about some steep road climbs. Up in Blue Ridge, Georgia, which isn't far from me, there are some paved roads so steep that it scares me to drive my car up them. I start thinking my front wheels might come off the ground and the car will just fall backwards down the hill.
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Old 07-23-11, 09:11 AM
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My in-city bike is set up as a 1x7. That works fine and I don't feel the need for more gear combinations. In front I have a Surly single-speed chainring. It has tall teeth that hold the chain well, so I don't need a chain guide to keep the chain in place.

With a 10-speed cassette you'd need a narrower chain, and it might not work with an SS chainring. If so you'd need an ordinary chain ring and a chain guide of some sort.
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Old 07-23-11, 09:18 AM
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If you really do need a low gear like that, and want something a little different, a (Super) compact double. You can remove the outer chainring of a triple, use a 50.4 bcd crankset or Sugino makes a stock one. All of them allow for really low gears without some of the adjustment hassle of a triple.
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Old 07-23-11, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
10 speed cassettes and chains are a lot more expensive
and they are consumables with milage, so you will go thru many..

ask your self about the Ratios you use , will you die with one less cog?
I agree with this. 10sp chains are fast-wearing. 9sp is better, 3/32 is best. If you need a wide gear range and no maintenance, go for the Rohloff Speedhub.

Of course, the best no-maintenance setup is singlespeed, and it works for me - all my bikes are now singlespeed. Also my knees stopped hurting since I switched to singlespeed cycling.
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Old 07-23-11, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by FastJake View Post
I'm not totally against the 1x10, but I do agree with most that anything from a 2x5 to 2x8 will be a much better system. Whatever you do, don't use a 24T as your only ring. I have single speed mountain bikes setup with approximately a 2/1 gear ratio. I can't imagine that as my highest gear on a geared bike, especially one that sees pavement.



Seriously? Are you pulling a trailer or something? I've never had a bike with a gear that low and I feel like I'd tip over trying to go that slow. Before you completely sacrifice all high gears take another look and see how much you really need that 24x36. Maybe you do, but that would surprise me very much.
everybody has different levels of fitness.

I want 24x36 sometimes when going up loose dirt, mud or snow.
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Old 07-23-11, 12:29 PM
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Thanks for IGH comments! Fascinating technology and I enjoyed catching up. But the added weight is a big negative. Interestingly, despite all my lap swimming for the last several years (this might be of interest to younger people), I don't feel the upper body strength is what it once was. Hence, tossing around a really light bike is a big kick - even before I jump on it.

Thanks for additional great input and I think we're zeroing in here. Let's forget the 11-36 cassette. On main frame computers, they used to call that "being at the bleeding edge" and tried to stay back a bit. I guess it's the same with bike technology. Also, I am not wedded to the 10 speed chain and cassette technology, so we can back off that too.

I'm thinking my karma is a triple, - possibly running off just the two smaller chainrings. I liked the suggestion of the compact double, but it appears the smallest ring gear is 26. And as long as I'm not doing a single, - and appreciate the comments in favor of a more conventional cassette, - perhaps an 8-speed with a 34, - then I'd like to go to a triple up front with a 24 or even a 22.

This is a very efficient way of getting a lot of high quality input. Thanks. If anyone is in the mood to make specific recommendations, I'm all ears. My profile on buying components is that I am not interested in bling, but I do love (1) light weight and (2) holding and working with a beautifully engineered piece of work, - whether it's a heat-treated bolt, - a lot more, - mass manufactured or what.

Tom
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Old 07-23-11, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by tomfer View Post
Thanks for IGH comments! Fascinating technology and I enjoyed catching up. But the added weight is a big negative. Interestingly, despite all my lap swimming for the last several years (this might be of interest to younger people), I don't feel the upper body strength is what it once was. Hence, tossing around a really light bike is a big kick - even before I jump on it.

Thanks for additional great input and I think we're zeroing in here. Let's forget the 11-36 cassette. On main frame computers, they used to call that "being at the bleeding edge" and tried to stay back a bit. I guess it's the same with bike technology. Also, I am not wedded to the 10 speed chain and cassette technology, so we can back off that too.

I'm thinking my karma is a triple, - possibly running off just the two smaller chainrings. I liked the suggestion of the compact double, but it appears the smallest ring gear is 26. And as long as I'm not doing a single, - and appreciate the comments in favor of a more conventional cassette, - perhaps an 8-speed with a 34, - then I'd like to go to a triple up front with a 24 or even a 22.

This is a very efficient way of getting a lot of high quality input. Thanks. If anyone is in the mood to make specific recommendations, I'm all ears. My profile on buying components is that I am not interested in bling, but I do love (1) light weight and (2) holding and working with a beautifully engineered piece of work, - whether it's a heat-treated bolt, - a lot more, - mass manufactured or what.

Tom
With a conventional 74mm bcd inner ring on a triple, you can go down to 24 teeth. If you can find an old Suntour Microdrive, or a compact triple with a 52/54 mm bcd inner ring, I think it becomes a 20. The latter are harder to find, but available if you really search.

You could also run one of these and get a 17 tooth granny gear. If you need lower gears than that, you might be out of luck.
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Old 07-23-11, 02:00 PM
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the only company that even seems to make a touring triple, 110/74BCD, anymore are sugino and you can get it as a sugino XD-600.
alternatively you can get a MTB triple, which often have 24-34-44 or thereabouts and they are quite easy to source parts for.
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Old 07-23-11, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by tomfer View Post
If anyone is in the mood to make specific recommendations, I'm all ears. My profile on buying components is that I am not interested in bling, but I do love (1) light weight and (2) holding and working with a beautifully engineered piece of work, - whether it's a heat-treated bolt, - a lot more, - mass manufactured or what.

Tom
The Shimano FC-M580 crankset is a Deore LX crankset with 44/32/22 chainrings, and it's a good value lightweight crankset. It uses a 104/64mm bolt pattern. If you want to spend more money to shave a little more weight, you can always move up to the XT or XTR counterparts, but I personally don't think they're a good value--too much extra money for only slight weight savings. You can replace the 44T with a Salsa Ring Dinger 104mm chain guard, which is rather lightweight guard. This will yield you an effective 32/22 double up front.

In the rear, I'd go with an 8 speed, or 9 speed drivetrain. Both have available options for a cassette with a 34T cog, although there are more options available for 9 speed. I'd also consider using a low-normal (rapid rise) rear derailleur so you can quickly and easily jump to low gears when you hit those sudden hills. And with the 44T removed from the crankset, you could use a medium cage rear derailleur instead of a long cage so you can get snappier shifting. The Shimano RD-M580-GS would be an excellent choice for a rear derailleur that fits said specs.
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Old 07-24-11, 04:15 AM
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The old Stronglight 80 chainset had a single set of holes with a small BCD but could be built up as a single, double or triple in almost any combination. It was quite cheap so you saw lots of weird variations.
I used mine as 28/38/48 triple, a 34/48 double (way before compact doubles were fashionable) and a 38 single. I saw one rider with 28/38 double.
Beware of the chain derailling off the ring in a single setup; you really need some chain retention device, rings or a front mech. Modern chains have a lot of lateral flex which aids derailling.

With new groupsets, any quality kit will be 10 speed, so even if 8/9 was better in many ways, you don't have the option.

I think a compact double chainset is probably your best option for keeping reasonable chainlines. If you want to use smaller rings, go ahead. Specialities-TA make a vast selection. SRAM seem to favour compact doubles, even on their MTB setups.
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Old 07-24-11, 05:09 PM
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Progress report: Last night a light bulb went off. Why don't I swallow my pride and carry my road bike down the hill on the back of my car. By swapping out some of the drivetrain, I had attempted making it into a pseudo mountain bike. But it did not meet my expectations. I only ended up bastardizing it. So let's put it back in it's more pure form. (And we'll let the new rain bike do the climbing.)

So today I left it at my LBS to put back the Shimano 105 5700 10sp 12-27. The Shimano 105 short age. And 10sp chain.

So that'll give me a leg up on my new rain bike. No part-cost at this point. I'll get the 34 cog that I want. (A Deore M771 XT 10sp 11-34. ) Also, I assume I'll be able to use the 10sp chain on my rain bike. I also get the matching RD. (A Shimano XT M772 SGS top normal shadow.) That RD is a long cage and that may be overkill, but it'll get me going. Well, to be honest, I looked at my gear calculations last night and now I'm not so sure I wont need the big ring gear after all. (Embarrassed look here.)

Thanks again for everyone's help. Those are not just words.

If anyone is still monitoring this thread, I have a related question. I'm dimly aware that the rear components are of fairly recent design. And so I assume that'll I'll have to be diligent in selecting a crankset that'll work smoothly with that rear end? I mean, is this just a 10sp issue? Or a Shimano issue?
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Old 07-24-11, 09:33 PM
  #24  
ScottNotBombs
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Originally Posted by jim hughes View Post
My in-city bike is set up as a 1x7. That works fine and I don't feel the need for more gear combinations. In front I have a Surly single-speed chainring. It has tall teeth that hold the chain well, so I don't need a chain guide to keep the chain in place.

With a 10-speed cassette you'd need a narrower chain, and it might not work with an SS chainring. If so you'd need an ordinary chain ring and a chain guide of some sort.
All chains are 3/32", it's just the outside width that changes with different speeds. As long as the chainring is 3/32" and not 1/8", it'll work fine with any modern bike chain.
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Old 07-25-11, 01:04 AM
  #25  
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all are 1/2" pitch, not all are 3/32 wide ..

cogs and the rollers are thinner,as the number of 'speeds'
increases, and is compressed into a limited space..

Last edited by fietsbob; 07-25-11 at 10:04 AM.
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