Having a bit of trouble getting cageless bearings to stay in the cups on my prewar schwinn. When I put the threaded race on, everything seems fine but after a few turns I can feel something go wrong. Taking the race back off it appears like the bearings start to stack up on each other... Seems a little impossible but I hand tightened the race pretty tightly, definitely touching the bearings.

Any ideas or tips on putting the bearings in?

Have you tried taking the cup off and assembling with bearing and race to make sure it all fits?

I have, and know that caged bearings fit in there fine

Are you sure you don't have too many bearings? When the race looks right it means you have one too many.

yea i would try taking 1 out. cant really say without seeing it but sounds like 1 too many or some misalignment

As above, the recommended fill for loose ball bearings is a full compliment-1. Use a bead of grease to "glue" the lose balls in place as you add them so they will maintain their position before assembling the cups. Also, be sure you are placing them on the "ball track" so you are using the proper diameter.

I have never understood why you would take a ball out of a bearing. A full set of balls spread the load just that much more.

Since the headset puts extreme pressure on the bearings, I use the heaviest auto bearing grease I can find. It also serves to keep loose balls in place when you reassemble the head set.

Here's the process that works every time:

Fill both cups with grease and the correct size and number of balls. Older Schwinns may use 3/16 on the lower race and 5/32 on the top. Fill up each cup and remove one ball. Smooth the grease so none is projecting above the cup.

It's easiest to assemble with the frame upside down, so that gravity holds the fork in place. Either way it's best to have the head tube vertical rather than tilted. Carefully insert the fork column through the head tube until it's seated. Turn the fork back and forth to check for smoothness and to distribute the grease. If working right side up hold the fork in position.

Thread the top race on and turn it down until it is almost touching the balls and grease that you placed in the top cup. Then pull the fork away from the bottom cup until the top race is seated. Now continue to turn in the top race until the assembly is snug.

The above method prevent the race from catching the grease and dragging the balls out of place before the bearing is snug.

Now just rotate to make sure things are smooth, wipe off excess grease and adjust.

A "full" set doesn't give the balls any room to move sideways at all and they can bind. The full-1 loading seems to be universally recommended.

Right. You need the correct number of balls. Too many balls and they get jammed against one another as the preload is set.

Thanks for the guide, this might help. Also, the idea that the top cup might need larger bearings might solve a lot of things. I was having a hell of time even setting the bearings in the top cup w/ the fork in place, just seemed like there was too much real estate even with the full set of bearings in.

For what it's worth I did fill the cups and then took one bearing out.

headsets is where i use the -1 rule. usually they take 25 or so balls. i don't like to count so i fill it up and take one out. headsets tend to use a wider range of ball sizes too. hubs and bbs are more consistent in the amount and size of the balls. hubs bbs i can usually remember how many they need. 9 10 or 11 for bbs. hubs and bbs are harder to overfill too.

10:1 odds you have one too many in there. With the right number of the right balls there's no way they can go off a defined track either to the side or over each other.

Well, not quite true. The headsets on the older Schwinn's had a cone as the thread-on portion and cups on the head tube, rather than the more modern setup of a thread-on cup and top cone race. As one screws down the cone it is quite easy for it to start moving the balls out of place by catching the grease as it turns, before the headset is firmly together. That is exactly the reason I developed the method I laid out, and if the OP follows my instructions he should be able to assemble it properly.

I hadn't read your post first. Yes, they can go off position while you tighten the upper bearing. I was reading that he got it down OK, ]then had problems. I still assemble all headsets cup down. That usually means with the bike upside down, but in some cases it's the other way around.

The headsets that annoy me the most are those with cups at both ends of the head tube. That means flipping the bike, fitting the fork, then turning it back over on the ground (while holding the fork in), and loading the upper race and finishing the job.

That is exactly what he is dealing with. I have found that with Phil or other thick enough grease the small balls used for a headset will stay in even with the cup upside down, so there's no reason to have to flip the bike back - just leave upside down and proceed as I suggested - even easier with caged bearings.

The following is by far the easiest headset bearing installation procedure:

1. Drive out old headset cups and crown race and discard.
2. Purchase proper size cartridge bearing headset.
3. Install new headset cups and crown race.
4. Install bearing cartridges oriented correctly.
5. Install top race cap and locknut.
6. Adjust headset and tighten locknut.
7. Come back in 5 to 10 years and repeat.

It's an approach, but then again my loose ball headsets last just about as long, with about the same effort. It's also kinda expensive for an older bike (pre-which war?). Then there's a good chance that the head tube and fork crown diameters are different than modern stuff, taking this option off the table.

Generally headset service is similar to all other bike repair issues. Easy if you know how, not so easy if you don't. Other than getting grease on my fingers, I don't see how setting up a cup/cone headset is any harder than a cartridge bearing one.

I still dont understand the -1 bit. If the race is full, and there is still a clearance between be balls, say .020 (not jammed in) why isnt more balls to share the load better? Im not too sure that the -1 isnt some old wives tail that has just become conventional "wisdom".

I also don't subscribe to the remove one approach, but I understand why others do. It's easy for someone to load balls at the outer edge of the cup, where the diameter is slighter larger than the actual ball track. So it looks like they fit with space available, but when the cone is fitted and the balls pushed down and inward, there is now not enough room.

IME- this problem only happens in headsets whose large diameter, and large complement of small balls increases the chance of this error. So the advice makes sense in the better-safe-than-sorry context.

FWIW; Full doesn't work worth a damn and "Full -1" works every time. Full -1 is also better because it sneaks in one more ball than a standard caged bearing set, which equates to "Full -2". Science aside, what works really good is good enough. Somethings just need to receive a bit of faith...