Hello!


So a little story:

I remember how this forum helped me when I constantly had to fix my old bike as a student. So much work, but rewarding! Cool forums!

Now I finally have a job and I decided to spend my money on a new bike at my LBS since I ran out of duck tape for the old one.

I thought I wouldn't go too cheap and rather have a good bike that lasts long, can handle something, and I also use it a lot, so I spend about 1000 Euro.

Basic Specs:
Looks pretty much like this.
Type: Citybike
Manufacturer: Stevens (Hamburg, Germany)
Shop: https://www.radsport-christoph.de/ Berlin, Germany

My old bike was a Giant from Thailand (I'm Dutch). And looked kind of like this. My friends called it the donkey due to the amount and variety of noise it would make even though it was still able to do what I wanted it to.

At first it was really great. Unlike before, people in front of me don't constantly check out their own bikes due to all the strange sounds coming from behind them haha. A smooth ride!

But then the gear hub would suddenly skip and not feed the torque into the wheel (I don't know the technical term for this), which caused my foot to hit the ground, go under the pedal, and make me fall in an uncomfortable manner. The resulting wound took 2 weeks before it was anywhere near a scar. This happened while I was on a straight piece without changing gears, aka doing anything really. But I was applying a lot of torque (I'm one of those idiots that only pushes down real hard and looks like a duck on wheels).

My friend told me I have nice pants now with holes in it, which makes me look like a hipster, and beauty hurts I guess.

So I thought it was some freak thing, but the next day it happened again, and I almost got underneath a car that time. So I brought it back. When they were done they said it was just configured incorrectly.
Ok that can be I suppose, but I never ever had that before in my life. And I've always had hub gears and had that cycling technique (you might argue that it is not a technique, but then again that would make me feel bad about my life, and you are not like that or?).

After that then it didn't happen that badly anymore, but sometimes it would still skip a little. I think perhaps I just was so afraid that I didn't push so hard any more and was super careful with changing gears. And up until now it is still doing it, especially on a specific gear. It still feels like it is changing very slowly though, could there be a weak spring inside?

Any way, then the chain and the hub's gear rusted heavily. I honestly thought it was just dirt because I hadn't cleaned the chain yet and I never had a bike without a chain shield and thought it was normal. The LBS noticed this when I went in for a spoke that was ripped halfway out.
They told me they had to replace the chain and the gear and also clean the hub for 125 Euro, and it was my fault for not oiling it and that's why it was rusted. They advised me to oil it once every week. And that the spoke wasn't in its socket was probably due to cobblestone and this was normal to happen.
I feel like a total noob but agreed to that. I mean I oiled my old bike twice a year and it never had a chain problem and this new bike was just a few months old. I really expected something more from it. But what can I say?

Today another spoke was sticking out. On my old bike the spokes would need a twist sometimes to get them tight, and that was all! I never had a completely loose spoke!

A friend told me that it is a fragile bike because it is a luxury bike. But to be honest I'm sick of it . I just don't feel safe and it is also dangerous for others on the road.


So what is your judgement? I'm so curious! Am I being ripped off, or is my friend right? I just wanted a strong, fast bike with a little bit of luxury.


And actually I can't stand hipsters at all ,

Antoon

Sounds like the ghost of your old bike has crept into your new one. Only viable form of exorcism would be to carefully dig a deep hole, quickly put the bike in it drive side down and then shovel in the dirt. Tamp well and run away quickly.

Sounds like your hub gears are slipping, your chain is not engaging properly (too much slack? too much torque?), or some combination thereof.

Do you ride in inclement weather? Moisture intrusion into the hub and/or chain could be causing a lot of these issues.

It is also possible that the hub was defective and only revealed itself after a certain amount of riding, or the cable shifter into the hub slackened and you got caught between gears.

Maybe a couple ideas here. First, if you ride in inclement weather, dry your bike thoroughly after each ride and re-oil the chain periodically. Second, you're aiming for smoothness on the pedals, not brute force - so if you hammer down on the pedals in a really high gear, might be causing some drivetrain slippage.

I'd hate to see you get turned off by this bike, but it's unclear exactly what is causing your issues.

hipsters can't stand themselves either, thats why they are hipsters!


not quite sure what your question is, so I'm just going to toss some random comments out.

pedaling 'hard' is known as mashing, and will both trash the bike in the short run, and your knees in the long run. you should ride in a lower gear and pedal faster/lighter, this is called 'spinning'. it moves the work load from your muscles to your cardiovascular system.

a chain should cost about $10-15, and a bike shop should be able to replace it for about $20 in labor at typical California shop rates. if you needed new sprockets due to riding with a bad chain, well, thats more $$ and could add up to your 120euro tab.

internal gear hubs are fairly delicate and not big on being mashed. absolutely for sure, do not shift while standing on it.

Skipping
I don't know what brand/model of internal gear hub you have but one needs to keep the hub in adjustment so that it works properly. It should not freewheel under pedaling force but if you routinely exert high pressure it could cause more problems than would normal riding. "Pushing down real hard" accomplishes nothing but wearing down the bike more quickly (meaning you won't go faster nor get in better shape).

Rusting chain
How fast rust occurs can vary greatly depending on chain, salt and other contamination, weather and storage conditions. Lubrication is done according to need, not time. If the chain starts to look dry or makes more noise (not just squeaking, but rattling also) then it needs lubrication. A properly lubricated chain will rust only in the worst winter/salt conditions.

Loosening spokes.
Spokes that loosen under normal riding conditions indicate a wheel that has not been properly tensioned. If someone just fixes one spoke without attending to sufficient and even tension the problem will reoccur. The only other thing that commonly causes spoke loosening is abusive riding or impact damage to the rim due to road hazards or low tire inflation.

How long have you had the bike? You bought it new, correct?

The loose spokes shouldn't be happening, regardless of cobblestones. Have the wheel checked for correct spoke tension, on all the spokes. I assume you don't weigh 150 kg or something unusual like that.

The rusty chain and sprocket is your fault. If you're riding in rain all the time, which I assume you are this time of year, then you will need to keep your chain lubricated. I hope you're not leaving the bike outside. Besides being bad for it, it will be stolen soon.

The slipping internal gear hub (IGH), I dunno, having no experience with them. It is best to learn to pedal smoothly at a higher cadence (rpm), for all sorts of reasons.

Woaw so many high quality replies overnight, thanks guys! Really great!


Sorry for all the "complaining" before, but it actually really lifted me up last night. I just loved that old bike and it never had any of these problems you see. I guess the new one is just more sensitive and I need to get over it.

The gear hub is pretty much this one, if anybody still has any ideas. I guess I will check the cable adjustment regularly. Put a flashlight in my shed.

I can't remember any chain noise/problems really, but at least I know how to recognize rust earlier now. The weather here in Berlin has been very wet since I got the bike basically. How should I dry it? Just towel the hub and gear every evening and some quick lubing?

I'll ask the LBS to check all the spokes this time.

About the "smashing" lol, it doesn't add speed but it does create torque which is what I need in the city with all the red lights. However lately I've been trying an all around torque and I noticed the hub skips don't cause such a huge aftermath (still scary as hell though), and it also generates a ton of torque. Just have to get some muscles in different places. Now I finally know why some people have pedals that stick to your feet.


Thanks for helping a n00b! Here's a star: ☆

Antoon

Regardless of the quality of the bike I always check them once a week for any issues. Usually fix them myself if I have the tools to do so. Just because its a nice bike doesn't mean it can't break. I had my chain break under light load a few days back. My fault, cutting corners on the cost of a drive train upgrade by going for the cheapest chain. I know better now. But of you want to keep the exposed parts of your drive train rust free aplying lubricant every week or so can't hurt. You don't need more than a few drops and the chain will spread it to where you need it to be.

Also I agree on the spokes. I've only ever had one spoke die and that was because I jumped a rather large speed bump at 30kph and came down hard with the front suspension locked (oops.... should have checked that!). They shouldn't be coming loose by themselves. The whole wheel needs to be tentioned correctly and you should have zero issues.

At 1000 Eur you should have a bike that would be able to take pretty much all street riding you can throw at it - assuming you don't ride down stairs, into bollards, big potholes and curbs. You probably have a right to feel annoyed.

It's not entirely clear what you mean by a spoke "ripped halfway out". Ripped, I think of spoke nipples pulling through the rim, which isn't really repairable in a reputable way - unless it's the nipple head that's popped off, or the flange that has sheared.

Spokes coming undone is usually a sign of improper assembly and/or insufficient tension. Either the spoke was too loose to start with, or you had residual spoke wind up which caused it to work itself loose once you started riding.
On a new bike, the wheel might still be salvageable - if it's worked through properly. This means checking for tension and making sure there's no residual wind-up throughout the wheel.
In marginal applications, which yours shouldn't be unless you're a really chunky lad, thread lock may be called for.

Here too there's some detail missing "They told me they had to replace the chain and the gear and also clean the hub for 125 Euro,".
Chain, that's clear enough, but heck, I can get a perfectly serviceable SS/IGH chain for 5 EUR. A stainless one for 14 EUR.
Gear, that's a bit vague, I'm guessing you refer to the sprocket - the toothed wheel the chain runs over. Should be about 10 EUR - but I can't imagine one being rusted so badly that it'd have to be replaced b/c of that.

It wouldn't be my 1st guess, but I assume it's possible that you had accelerated wear/elongation of the chain, for unknown reasons, which then caused the sprocket to wear down prematurely. Or your sprocket was made of that infamous cheese alloy, which pops up every now and then.

Either way, if you subtract the likely parts cost, you're left with a hefty sum that's supposedly has gone to cover working time.
It'd be interesting to know how long they've claimed to work on the bike.
125 EUR would almost cover the cost for a replacement set of all the hub internals. What's left from the parts costs should certainly cover a detailed tear down, clean & relube.

Or maybe they changed the chainring/crank too? That'd help explain things.

Then there's this bit:"clean the hub". Last hard data I read myself recommended an IGH to be flushed/lubed first after 6 months of regular use, then yearly. But I know plenty of people/bikes who have blissfully ignored this advice w/o any visible negative effects.
Either way, modern hubs are such sealed units that flushing/lubing really is a shop job rather that something the rider can do with the wheel on the bike.

I wouldn't expect to have to do any early maintenance on an IGH unless the bike had been dunked in water deep enough to submerge the hub.

So we come to:"it was my fault for not oiling it and that's why it was rusted", and I have to agree with them there. Maybe the factory lube on your chain was a bit on the light side, maybe it got washed off in the first rains, maybe some bored sales attendant wiped most of it off - which made the chain rust faster and harder than normal. It's easy enough to check, and it's easy enough to do, so it falls on the rider.

And "A friend told me that it is a fragile bike because it is a luxury bike." - I don't agree with that. At 1000 EUR it should be a solid workhorse of a commuter bike, no particular pampering needed.

But while IGH set ups are usually held to be more weather resistant, they are less forgiving when it comes to torque, and adjustment issues. Many of them comes with tooth count limits, ie, " if your sprocket is this number, your chainring should be that number".
If you've made a life long habit of mashing, maybe, just maybe, you're strong enough to do damage to an IGh even if you're inside the tooth count recommendations.
And putting the power down before a gear has fully engaged, well that'a surefire recipe for trouble for any drive train. It can strip teeth of sprockets, chip pawls and serrations in freewhee/freehub clutches and trash cogs in IGHs.

So I guess it's a mixed judgement. You shouldn't have the spoke trouble, you have failed in caring for the chain, the cost for the work seems a bit steep and the original reason for the chain skip/slip can't be settled from afar.
At the price, and some sort of average rider, I wouldn't have expected that kind of trouble - apart from the chain rusting.

Tweak the gear cable adjustment one way, just a little bit.

If the skipping gets worse then put it back where it was and then go the other way just a little bit.

If it gets better Paypal me $5. ; )

Best check IMO is a careful ride down a straight and flat piece of road, going from one gear to the next and shifts should be clean with minimal delay. If it fails that, then you check the adjustment as your 1st step in trouble shooting. On new bikes it's common to have the cable(s) settle a little, which can cause the shifting to go out of trim a bit.

Chain care is something that gets discussed with almost religious intensity, so expect opinions to differ. But daily care at that level isn't something that many bikes see.
I'd say weekly care should be sufficient.
I use two rags, one(moistened with either oil or a solvent) to wipe the grit off, then I dribble on some new oil, then use a clean rag to distribute the new oil and wipe off the excess. Rag #2 then becomes the cleaning rag for the next maintenance session.
While some oils are indeed better than others, I consider the frequency of maintenance to be more important than the fine details of how you go about it.

IT's close, but drop the "s". "Mashing" is the common term for it.

That is a bit odd. Usually, the ones who stall out on a light are the ones that's in a too high gear who can't get up to balancing speed fast enough. If you're in a gear that lets you follow the pack easily, and still manage to outdo the hub, then either you're amazingly strong, or there's something wrong.

I still don't think you should have to put up with skipping.
What's your pedalling/shifting technique like? ´Course, you have to stop pedalling entirely for a brief moment to get the shift at all, but I prefer to go easy the 1st half-turn or so to see that all the bits have engaged properly before I put the power down.

There are several reasons to that, and it may not be particularly strongy linked to the troubles you are experiencing, but most would still consider them a good idea.

I don't have any fast answers - just a couple comments.
When you buy a new bike its supposed to come with an Owner's Manual and a warranty. Every manufacturer provides them for every bike - the retailer is supposed to give you yours.

Its YOUR LEGAL RIGHT to expect one and the dealers RESPONSIBILITY to provide one.

Its YOUY RESPONSIBILITY to read and follow whats in the Owners Manual.

If you do that and the bike fails to perform properly - its the DEALERS RESPONSIBILITY to fix things at no charge to you for the first year and its YOUR LEGAL RIGHT to expect that.

If you DON'T do that and there are repairs required, the dealer is still expected to provide an estimate and cannot make any repairs without your approval.

After blind guess land..go bacK to the shop and have them re check their assembly and adjustments ..

all this site can do is type.. , you still have to go to the shop anyway..

The spoke issue is just not right. Several good engineering studies and long experience of very good hand wheel builders has clarified that spokes will not break or loosen quickly if the wheel is properly trued with the spokes at the correct tension and with the spokes properly stress-relieved. This results in racing wheels for use on Belgian cobblestones for hundreds of km that are usually trouble-free, carrying the strongest riders in the world. A few of them are even big and heavy. I don't think your LBS is going to resolve your problem correctly, if they are just replacing a spoke and making sure it doesn't wiggle. Another thing that will happen is your rims will start to wobble out of true.

If you can find a bike shop close enough to you that has extensive trade in long-distance touring bikes or for enthusuasts of high-performance road-racing style bikes, take your bike there if they are capable in "tensioning and truing wheels." And pay them for it, it should only be needed once every few years or less often, and it will be a lot more efficient than getting more spokes replaced until the rims are unusable. If there is a cycling club or a national club, send them email for recommendations on finding a good race-quality wheel builder because your wheels need proper retensioning and truing. I would not assume you have garbage parts or spokes too thin, simply that the wheels were not assembled and finished correctly.

I am surprised your hub issue is considered normal. IGH hubs are widely reputed to be stable, set them and forget them items. The old British Sturmey Archer 3-speeds and 4-speeds were that way, once the indicator (kind of a cable-operated actuating rod) was set up properly and there was some oil inside the unit. I think this expectation is still reasonable, though I'm not familiar with how modern IGHs really do stand up under use.

Overall I agree with forum member dabac - I think you have a right to be annoyed for 1k euro!

I think your bike shop is poo, and they're gouging you.

For example, the cog on your freewheel shouldn't have been replaced; one of these should last years and any rust on it is purely cosmetic. Almost certainly wouldn't have been a rubbish cheese one on 1k Euro bike.

And a new wheel with broken spokes that isn't fixed free of charge? That's the mark of a crap shop. They don't understand it's their responsibility to ensure wheels have adequate tension when the bike's sold.

I don't think anyone replying in this thread considers it normal, as such. I'd expect pretty much any IGH to give years of good service under normal riding conditions with modest to no maintenance.

With that said, there are a few known issues.
Even if problems are relatively rare, there will always be some within that group that are more common - or less rare - than others.
Having the shifting go out of tune as the cabling settles in on a new bike is one of them.
Putting the power down before a gear has engaged fully is another. And some hubs do come with torque(ie tooth count) limitations, implying that it'd be possible to do damage to a hub if, you're a stronger-than-average rider.

So, what you have is "normal, given the conditions". And we don't know the conditions good enough. The hub issues, during entirely regular riding conditions = not normal.
The hub issues - assuming a power rider and maybe a shifter that has slipped some = not so surprising.

[Partial QUOTE=Xilliah;15196298] ...I'll ask the LBS to check all the spokes this time. Antoon[/QUOTE]

OP; Recommend being a good bit more specific. Do you want them to could the spokes to make sure they are all there? Or something more useful? Need to ask specifically if the LBS has a competent wheel builder on staff who regularly builds successful wheels. If yes, then talk with him/her one-on-one. Tell them what is happening to your wheel. If they suggest that you hand the wheels to them for a re-truing and full tensioning service, let me. Be prepared to pay for the service ($30-50USD). From your description, your wheels are basic machine built wheels that lack a correct tensioning service. Until that is done, the wheels will regularly require fixing and never perform well. Your story also seems to indicate that you are not visiting a good LBS and you might do well to find another one.

Any bike costing over $600-700 should have had the wheels checked for tension, IMO.

for such a bad situation you do have an excellent sense of humor! i commend you.

part of your problem may be the EEU. you should get rid of euros and go back to gulden.
then things won't cost so much!

i have scars on my legs from gears disengaging, so empathy to you.

I meant, that I'm surprised the LBS isn't helping with a little more enthusiasm. They seem to be doing surface repairs, have done so several times, will be content to do that until they can sell him the next bike, and are making seemingly no attempt to get a solution that is more in keeping with the OP's needs and wants for the bike he has purchased - a reliable bike for commuting and city use, in which cranking on the pedals is sometimes required.

They seem arrogant, less than competent and uncaring. I'd be looking for a more competent bike shop that is also more honest and forthcoming with sound advice.

I did not intend to say that the participants in this thread are arrogant, less than competent and uncaring.

I'm sorry to say it, but you are at least partially responsible for all your problems.

Chains get dirty and need lubrication. You are responsible for cleaning and lubing them on a regular basis as needed. The more you ride in rain and mud and salt the more cleaning and lubing you need. There are lots of threads and Sheldon Brown notes on this.

The Shimano Nexus 8 speed IGH is a very good hub and is trouble free for most people. Yes, you can shift while pedaling or while coasting, or while standing still, but you shouldn't try to shift under heavy load, you will break it. Get off your habit of mashing (smashing) the pedals, and learn to spin. Shift down into lower gear ranges. I ride only an IGH, the same Shimano Nexus you have. You should be starting from stopped in gear 3 or 4. You can start in 5, but in 6 or 7 for start you are stressing the system. If you routinely start in high gears you can break it, and that is no fault of the hub.

You also must keep the hub shifter adjusted correctly. Set the shifter in 4th gear, and look at the little window on the hub. There are two little marks that must be lined up perfectly. You do this by changing the tension on the cable at the shifter on the handlebar. Pictures appear in the appropriate sections of Sheldon Brown's material at the beginning of this mechanics forum. If the adjustment isn't right it will skip, especially under heavy stress. It is your responsibility to learn how to do that, and do it regularly.

It sounds as if you may have had a bad spoke set up when you bought the bike. When you first noticed loose spokes you should have taken it back to your shop and had them true and tension the wheels under warranty. You can't just give a loose spoke a turn or two and ride on. The whole wheel must be trued up. Keep in mind that if you weigh 100kg or more and ride on rough cobble streets you need different wheels and tires than if you weigh 65kg and ride only on smooth pavement. Your bike and all its parts must be appropriate to you and your expected mode of riding.

Every object you own imposes a burden on you to know how to use it and how to maintain it for use. Otherwise you will end up paying somebody else to do it and not getting satisfactory service from anything.