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New Bike with Uneven "Q-Factor" Pedal Distance?

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Old 02-26-13 | 02:46 AM
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I guarantee that both of your pedals are *exactly* the same distance from the pedal centreline. It's your saddle that's in the wrong place. Oh, and the handlebars. ; )
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Old 02-26-13 | 03:25 AM
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Just flip it the spindle and your right there on most stuff.
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Old 02-26-13 | 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY
BTW_ stop measuring everything, you'll keep finding oddities to obsess over. Just ride the bike, and wait for something to actually be wrong before fretting over it.
Now, just a gosh darm minute there young man !!! With an attitude like that, 75% of Bike Forums would vanish !!
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Old 02-26-13 | 06:24 AM
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Ok, why don't you take the thing to your nearest bike shop and have yourself professionally fitted. Just be sure to let the shop know that you're deeply concerned about "riding lopsided for years and completely warping your body." I'm absolutely positive that you'll succeed in finding a shop that'll be more than willing to take the weight of your "warped concerns" off of your body (and wallet).

Otherwise, you may want to spend some time researching the "Q" factor issue on the Internet. Doing so might also help you better understand this specific measurement and why some "experts" now recommend a narrower, rather than a wider, "Q" factor (and the possible reasons for having a slightly uneven pedal centerline distance).
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Old 02-26-13 | 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by matttt
I was looking into Q-factor a bit previously from the general width issue, and all I seemed to be able to find was some very expensive specific Q spacer bolt things. Like $50 for a bolt (!).
I bought these back when this guy was selling them for only $20 (I think he machines them himself). Now there's another guy selling them for a few dollars more (with "nylon washers for easy on/off" -- never seen that before!)

Of course I use both of them, but you could use one if you want. A $30 is probably not the improvement over $50 you were looking for, but there you are.

I guess there is the possibility of steel washers as well (or nylon?), I don't have a guess of how many you can stack in there and still have enough threads of pedal spindle in the crank to be secure.
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Old 02-26-13 | 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by jolly_ross
I guarantee that both of your pedals are *exactly* the same distance from the pedal centreline. It's your saddle that's in the wrong place. Oh, and the handlebars. ; )
Not to mention the frame...
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Old 02-26-13 | 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by matttt
Seems to be "square type":

https://www.srsuntour-cycling.com/dst.../XCC-T208.html

I guess you're saying the spacer would go between the BB and the crank...

This can't have been going on for too long as triple chainrings haven't been around too long.
Triples have been around since the 1950's, if not earlier. Maybe that says something about how much of a "problem" this is.

Last edited by ThermionicScott; 02-26-13 at 11:05 AM. Reason: double-checked sources
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Old 02-26-13 | 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by ThermionicScott
Triples have been around since the 1930's. Maybe that says something about how much of a "problem" this is.
+1.

As I also posted earlier, asymmetrical Q factors are about as old as chain drive. Q-factor is one of those concerns that folks bring up from time to time, but has never been demonstrated to be meaningful. If it were, then who's to say what's best. If the logic is to have the feet below the hips, consider that people vary tremendously in hip width, so logic would dictate that different people would want different Q-factors, and women in general might want wider Q then men.

In the case of asymmetrical Q, which is right, the wide one or the narrow?

Either way, if it really bothers you, you can shift the cleats of cycling shoes to either side to compensate, or let nature dictate where you place your feet on the pedals if riding with street shoes.
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Old 02-26-13 | 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by matttt
So, OK yeah, but on the chance I don't want to ride lopsided for years completely warping my body, is it easy and cheap to (have the LBS) put in some kind of spacer on the left crank?

I was looking into Q-factor a bit previously from the general width issue, and all I seemed to be able to find was some very expensive specific Q spacer bolt things. Like $50 for a bolt (!).

I have no idea really how pedals attach. Is there some extra threading in there where you can just screw on a 50¢ not $50 bolt to put the pedal out a quarter inch?

I must say I find it strange that the industry would opt for lopsided rather than a bit wider.
Are you serious?

Very few people care. Its not a big deal.

I'm much more worried about bearing preloads, properly adjusted brakes, smooth shifting, than some tiny oddity.
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Old 02-26-13 | 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by RubeRad
I bought these back when this guy was selling them for only $20 (I think he machines them himself). Now there's another guy selling them for a few dollars more (with "nylon washers for easy on/off" -- never seen that before!)
.
I like those. I keep using big wide alloy BMX pedals on my bikes, even my fancy carbon/aluminum road bike because my right ankle is messed up and points outward. When I ride on normal pedals, my right foot tends to slip off. Not with the big wide bmx pedals. Might be interesting to try a set of those extenders with a set of normal pedals.
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Old 02-26-13 | 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by bobotech
I like those. I keep using big wide alloy BMX pedals on my bikes, even my fancy carbon/aluminum road bike because my right ankle is messed up and points outward. When I ride on normal pedals, my right foot tends to slip off. Not with the big wide bmx pedals. Might be interesting to try a set of those extenders with a set of normal pedals.
Yes, both my feet are turned out; without extenders I get ITband pain at the outside of my knees from having my feet forcibly rotated inwards. If I adjust my cleats so my feet are comfortable, my heels hit the cranks every rotation. Pedal extenders perfectly fit the bill.

You should buy a pair, put the right one on your bike, and sell the left one to OP!
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Old 02-26-13 | 01:26 PM
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As others have said, it is not a huge amount of "offness". Easier though to just measure the gap between the DT and the backside of each arm... It could be that the left arm is bent a bit also. Pretty common, so look for that possiblitity. Replacment left arms are cheap...so if bent, post all the specifics and pictures and we can give you a URL to the right part ($9-$20 typically).

After reading everything posted, post anew if this is something you really want to pursue a fix for. From the original postings, fixing it yourself will not be likely as there are specific skills and tools need. A good bike shop could do. It will cost you a bit less than $100 or so for parts and labor.
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Old 02-26-13 | 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by bobotech
Are you serious?

Very few people care. Its not a big deal.

I'm much more worried about bearing preloads, properly adjusted brakes, smooth shifting, than some tiny oddity.
All you have to do to see that something is ridiculous is exaggerate it. This is how comedians earn their living.

Put your right pedal 12 inches out from the frame and your left pedal 2 inches from the frame, and it will be fairly obvious that asymmetrical pedaling is a "real ergonomic disaster".

And being slightly rather than blatantly off, makes a quarter-inch asymmetry a "subtle but real" ergonomic disaster.

People accept all sorts of strange things in the world as normal, just because they aren't sharp enough to notice -- or worse, go along with "how everybody else does it".
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Old 02-26-13 | 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY
asymmetrical Q factors are about as old as chain drive.
Are you sure that that historical triple chainrings didn't just have wider Q-factor before that became an issue?

The sane design approach is that if you can't get narrow enough Q-factor (for some people) with triple chainrings -- then triple chainrings are a nice thought but not practical to (continue) implement(ing).

Originally Posted by FBinNY
Q-factor is one of those concerns that folks bring up from time to time, but has never been demonstrated to be meaningful. If it were, then who's to say what's best.
For my bike? Me!

Give me the option to do that, bike industry.

Originally Posted by FBinNY
If the logic is to have the feet below the hips, consider that people vary tremendously in hip width, so logic would dictate that different people would want different Q-factors, and women in general might want wider Q then men.
Abso-friggin-lutely. No bike shop should sell any bike without taking a quick stance-measurement against a chart on the floor, and popping on or removing some washers from the pedal system. Or telling you you need to get a single-chainring bike. This is exactly where the bike industry should be going right now. But of course predictably, instead it's a marketing trend of just "narrower Q" that lets the industry keep selling (new and more expensive) one-size-fits-few products.

Originally Posted by FBinNY
Either way, if it really bothers you, you can shift the cleats of cycling shoes to either side to compensate, or let nature dictate where you place your feet on the pedals if riding with street shoes.
Yeah, I probably already am just positioning my left foot a quarter inch off the left pedal (riding a casual bike in street clothes).

But it would be nice to have both feet firmly on both pedals.

A bag of assorted sizes of pedal extender bolts ought to be a commonly available bike part for like $10 or $20.
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Old 02-26-13 | 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by RubeRad
I bought these back when this guy was selling them for only $20 (I think he machines them himself). Now there's another guy selling them for a few dollars more (with "nylon washers for easy on/off" -- never seen that before!)

Of course I use both of them, but you could use one if you want. A $30 is probably not the improvement over $50 you were looking for, but there you are.

I guess there is the possibility of steel washers as well (or nylon?), I don't have a guess of how many you can stack in there and still have enough threads of pedal spindle in the crank to be secure.
Wait... are you helpfully trying to help me achieve what I'm trying to achieve, rather than giving me your opinions on what I'm trying to achieve... **********?

This is highly disorienting. Please stop confusing me.

Unfortunately those bolts only seem to come in 3/4 inch size. I'm actually finding more and cheaper now that I know to search for "pedal extenders" -- but nobody seems to make them in the 1/4" inch I need:

https://www.kneesaver.net/ecommerce/k...tenders-3.html
https://www.niagaracycle.com/product_...ucts_id=430953

Still looking around...
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Old 02-26-13 | 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by ksisler
As others have said, it is not a huge amount of "offness". Easier though to just measure the gap between the DT and the backside of each arm... It could be that the left arm is bent a bit also. Pretty common, so look for that possiblitity. Replacment left arms are cheap...so if bent, post all the specifics and pictures and we can give you a URL to the right part ($9-$20 typically).

After reading everything posted, post anew if this is something you really want to pursue a fix for. From the original postings, fixing it yourself will not be likely as there are specific skills and tools need. A good bike shop could do. It will cost you a bit less than $100 or so for parts and labor.
Thank you. I have measured very carefully and accurately, and it's a brand new bike not yet crushed in any way. Wouldn't want spend $100 correcting a new $400 bike though
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Old 02-26-13 | 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by matttt
So, OK yeah, but on the chance I don't want to ride lopsided for years completely warping my body....
You are simply not thinking this through. Again, the human body is NOT symmetrical, so it's not logical to make assumptions about the need for accommodating a symmetry that is probably not there. Secondly as also mentioned, the difference in both leg angle and saddle to pedal distance is miniscule. Your leg geometry may be such that the Q factor helps OR hurts, but I would say 6 mm is not going to to either to a significant degree.

Lets say you bring the other crank out 6 mm, and for the sake of argument let's say that 6mm is significant. What if your right leg is shorter than the other, or the distance from your spine to hip joint is smaller on the right than the left side? Wouldn't your "correction" make things worse?? Aside from any body dimensions, wouldn't the greater leverage from your foot being further from the crank arm cause more flexing of the frame on one side than the other?

Last edited by cny-bikeman; 02-26-13 at 01:48 PM.
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Old 02-26-13 | 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by matttt
Wait... are you helpfully trying to help me achieve what I'm trying to achieve, rather than giving me your opinions on what I'm trying to achieve... **********?

This is highly disorienting. Please stop confusing me.

Unfortunately those bolts only seem to come in 3/4 inch size. I'm actually finding more and cheaper now that I know to search for "pedal extenders" -- but nobody seems to make them in the 1/4" inch I need:

https://www.kneesaver.net/ecommerce/k...tenders-3.html
https://www.niagaracycle.com/product_...ucts_id=430953

Still looking around...
Some pedals are threaded enough to allow you to get 1 or 2 mm of washers on the pedal shaft. See if your pedals have washers. If so, remove them from one side and add them to the other and maybe gain a few mm back.

You won't find them shorter. Think about it. You need the threads on your current pedal to fully seat. In order to do that, the adapter has to space your pedal out farther than the length of the thread on the pedal.
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Old 02-26-13 | 02:14 PM
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Boy,I don't know.....Crank being off a 1/4",handlebars not centered by 1/8",seat to low by 3/16"......Sounds like you better sell it before you end up in a wheelchair for the rest of your life.....

How much is it to blueprint a bicycle anyways?

Put the ruler away and go enjoy your new bike......

Last edited by Booger1; 02-26-13 at 02:24 PM.
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Old 02-26-13 | 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by matttt
All you have to do to see that something is ridiculous is exaggerate it. This is how comedians earn their living.

Put your right pedal 12 inches out from the frame and your left pedal 2 inches from the frame, and it will be fairly obvious that asymmetrical pedaling is a "real ergonomic disaster". And being slightly rather than blatantly off, makes a quarter-inch asymmetry a "subtle but real" ergonomic disaster.

People accept all sorts of strange things in the world as normal, just because they aren't sharp enough to notice -- or worse, go along with "how everybody else does it".
Really? Using that as a tool to analyze significance would have to conclude that one should worry about one's tire pressure being one lb high because if it's 50 lbs high it will explode.

As for your closing statement, though I totally agree with the statement it's irrelevent, as noticing a difference does not in itself argue for changing it.

Part of the deal when you ask advice of knowledgeable people is that you can expect they will inform you of something they are concerned you overlooked. I've done that, you will do what you wish, so good luck.

Last edited by cny-bikeman; 02-26-13 at 02:36 PM.
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Old 02-26-13 | 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by matttt
People accept all sorts of strange things in the world as normal, just because they aren't sharp enough to notice -- or worse, go along with "how everybody else does it".
Quit flattering yourself, put your rulers and tape measures away, and just go riding.

Being "sharp" is one thing; obsessing over things that really don't matter is another.

Btw, how in the world do you manage to walk on uneven or off-chamber ground without completely warping your body?
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Old 02-26-13 | 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by RubeRad
Yes, both my feet are turned out; without extenders I get ITband pain at the outside of my knees from having my feet forcibly rotated inwards. If I adjust my cleats so my feet are comfortable, my heels hit the cranks every rotation. Pedal extenders perfectly fit the bill.

You should buy a pair, put the right one on your bike, and sell the left one to OP!
That is something else I noticed when I used normal pedals that I forgot about, my right heel kept on hitting the crankarm with every revolution.
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Old 02-26-13 | 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by matttt
Wait... are you helpfully trying to help me achieve what I'm trying to achieve, rather than giving me your opinions on what I'm trying to achieve... **********?

This is highly disorienting. Please stop confusing me.
I'm on your side here dude, I agree this not a stupid question (unless all bike fit questions are stupid); but I also trust many of the experienced voices in here that say that this particular issue turns out not to actually cause people problems.

But hey if you want to fiddle, that's your right, I'd love to hear if it makes any difference!

Unfortunately those bolts only seem to come in 3/4 inch size. I'm actually finding more and cheaper now that I know to search for "pedal extenders" -- but nobody seems to make them in the 1/4" inch I need
Well, if you think about the geometry, washers can only take you out so far before you don't have enough threads to keep the pedal in there well (unless you are a machinist and can make replacement pedal spindles with extra-long threaded ends), and extenders have a certain minimum size because they have to accept your entire spindle threaded end (i.e. typical crank thickness) and still have some room left to strongly hold on to the replacement threaded end of the extender which you put in the crank.

Otherwise, you'd have to look at solutions where the extender end is thicker than the spindle end, so the spindle can screw into the inside of the extender threads. So you either tap a larger threading into your cranks, or you machine your spindle threads smaller.

Anyways, it may be that your desired 1/4" is in the gap between what washers and standard-threading extenders can do. Also not cheap, but speedplays I believe can be ordered in various spindle lengths. Perhaps you can custom-order a pair with different l/r spindles?
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Old 02-26-13 | 03:49 PM
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Most BB are of a fixed length and the offset or symmetry are a manufacturing design,
and so only by buying a different BB will it be any alteration. 1/4" may be having used a symmetric BB
and then installing a Crank set better suited to a BB that is not Symmetrical, [or visa versa]

though The right crank arm is better judged by how well the chainline is laid out,
in relation to the cassette, F/W gears on the back

and letting the pedal relationship be Que' Sera, Sera.
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Old 02-26-13 | 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by RubeRad
I'm on your side here dude, I agree this not a stupid question (unless all bike fit questions are stupid); but I also trust many of the experienced voices in here that say that this particular issue turns out not to actually cause people problems.

But hey if you want to fiddle, that's your right, I'd love to hear if it makes any difference!
The thing is that any answer the OP gives will be purely subjective/psychosomatic in the result. It would be like the roadies who swear that they can feel their acceleration is improved when they took 10 grams of weight off their bike by removing the stickers off their wheelset or something. There is no way a normal human can feel the difference in acceleration when such a minuscule amount of weight is removed. I doubt very much that you could tell the difference between less than 1/4 inch of pedal position in the grand scheme of things.
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