On spoke length
#1
On spoke length
These days, we obsess over precise spoke length because we can. FB, Mr Rabbit, and other wheelbuilders with experience can probably relate to this posting by Ric Hjertberg.
https://www.wheelfanatyk.blogspot.ca/...e-lengths.html
https://www.wheelfanatyk.blogspot.ca/...e-lengths.html
#2
Senior Member


Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,518
Likes: 40
From: San Jose, California
Bikes: 2001 Tommasini Sintesi w/ Campagnolo Daytona 10 Speed
I remember quite a few older folks on their way out back in the early to late 80s...
"10 and 7/8ths".
"Evertything four cross..."
"10mm nipples, old school long threads - cut off the rest when done. Who needs a calculator?"
And of course, retiring salesman would say: "You don't need a spoke machine..."
=8-)
"10 and 7/8ths".
"Evertything four cross..."
"10mm nipples, old school long threads - cut off the rest when done. Who needs a calculator?"
And of course, retiring salesman would say: "You don't need a spoke machine..."
=8-)
__________________
5000+ wheels built since 1984...
Disclaimer:
1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:
Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
5000+ wheels built since 1984...
Disclaimer:
1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:
Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
#3
Senior Member


Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 39,897
Likes: 3,865
From: New Rochelle, NY
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
When I started building 36h was the norm, except in the UK where they still preferred 32/40 F&R.
The nice thing about 36h, is that you could build them 4x. 4x pattern on a 36h is full tangent so flange diameter barely matters, and you could lace any wheel with typical rims on any hub with the same spokes. Dish was less then and you didn't even need to use two lengths on rears.
The brits also did something cool. By playing with flange size and cross they could build both the 32h front and 30h rear with the same spoke. That meant that a master wheel builder only needed to have a few size spokes on hand.
SS back then was rare and just starting to be trusted. Like Ric, we used mostly 15g DB Robergel spokes from France (different thread was a PIA if anybody should accidentally mix nipples). I scored a bunch of Stella 14g DB in stainless and am still using the last of them to this day.
As Ric said, we really had to get creative, and we learned to make do. My favorite make do solution was to use a 2mm drill to deepen the thread relief on nipples so they'd thread farther onto long spokes, a trick I still use when I have to.
The nice thing about 36h, is that you could build them 4x. 4x pattern on a 36h is full tangent so flange diameter barely matters, and you could lace any wheel with typical rims on any hub with the same spokes. Dish was less then and you didn't even need to use two lengths on rears.
The brits also did something cool. By playing with flange size and cross they could build both the 32h front and 30h rear with the same spoke. That meant that a master wheel builder only needed to have a few size spokes on hand.
SS back then was rare and just starting to be trusted. Like Ric, we used mostly 15g DB Robergel spokes from France (different thread was a PIA if anybody should accidentally mix nipples). I scored a bunch of Stella 14g DB in stainless and am still using the last of them to this day.
As Ric said, we really had to get creative, and we learned to make do. My favorite make do solution was to use a 2mm drill to deepen the thread relief on nipples so they'd thread farther onto long spokes, a trick I still use when I have to.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
#4
When I started building 36h was the norm, except in the UK where they still preferred 32/40 F&R.
The nice thing about 36h, is that you could build them 4x. 4x pattern on a 36h is full tangent so flange diameter barely matters, and you could lace any wheel with typical rims on any hub with the same spokes. Dish was less then and you didn't even need to use two lengths on rears.
The brits also did something cool. By playing with flange size and cross they could build both the 32h front and 30h rear with the same spoke. That meant that a master wheel builder only needed to have a few size spokes on hand.
SS back then was rare and just starting to be trusted. Like Ric, we used mostly 15g DB Robergel spokes from France (different thread was a PIA if anybody should accidentally mix nipples). I scored a bunch of Stella 14g DB in stainless and am still using the last of them to this day.
As Ric said, we really had to get creative, and we learned to make do. My favorite make do solution was to use a 2mm drill to deepen the thread relief on nipples so they'd thread farther onto long spokes, a trick I still use when I have to.
The nice thing about 36h, is that you could build them 4x. 4x pattern on a 36h is full tangent so flange diameter barely matters, and you could lace any wheel with typical rims on any hub with the same spokes. Dish was less then and you didn't even need to use two lengths on rears.
The brits also did something cool. By playing with flange size and cross they could build both the 32h front and 30h rear with the same spoke. That meant that a master wheel builder only needed to have a few size spokes on hand.
SS back then was rare and just starting to be trusted. Like Ric, we used mostly 15g DB Robergel spokes from France (different thread was a PIA if anybody should accidentally mix nipples). I scored a bunch of Stella 14g DB in stainless and am still using the last of them to this day.
As Ric said, we really had to get creative, and we learned to make do. My favorite make do solution was to use a 2mm drill to deepen the thread relief on nipples so they'd thread farther onto long spokes, a trick I still use when I have to.
Lucky are those like me who get to stand on the shoulders of the pioneers.
#6
Senior Member
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 33,657
Likes: 1,119
From: Pittsburgh, PA
Bikes: '96 Litespeed Catalyst, '05 Litespeed Firenze, '06 Litespeed Tuscany, '20 Surly Midnight Special, All are 3x10. It is hilly around here!
I means the spokes ran at right angles to imaginary lines from the axle center through the spoke holes in the flange and were. therefore. "tangent" to the edge of the flange.
#7
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,180
Likes: 0
From: Sunnyvale, California
Bikes: Bridgestone RB-1, 600, T700, MB-6 w/ Dirt Drops, MB-Zip, Bianchi Limited, Nashbar Hounder
Ahhhh! I bypassed the pain of compromising on spokes with all sorts of lacing patterns. I started building in the 80's and our shop had a Phil Wood spoke cutter. I remember reading the manual on how to line up the top part of the die to get the best and deepest rolled threads. And we had a bonanza for employees for a month when we cleared out our inventory of every damn spoke you could think of and started to stock just a few brands in max length to cut to order. The double-butted, we stocked in more lengths but still cut to order within a centimeter or so. Most of our employees couldn't do math or follow formulas worth jack. There was an insert in our Sutherland's binder that the owners added on spoke length calculation. I was one of just two of us that actually used it. The other guys would pull reference spokes out of the box and line them up against a busted wheel to guess what the spoke length would be and then use the cutter. Most of the time, it worked okay. We had an acceptable lost rate with a cup strapped to the side of the work bench where the Phil Wood cutter was with all the bad length cuts we made and we'd take those spokes first and cut ever shorter spokes. Thank goodness for 700C and 26 inch wheels because many of our repairs were for 27 inch wheels initially, and the transition allowed us to use those rejects and re-cut them. Only two of us actually could accurately build wheels from scratch and get the right spoke length. Even then, most of the wrench-heads thought the formula was magic.
Interestingly, the article pointed to by the OP mentions the HPV projects. I recall building the training wheels 4X 36 spokes sew-up rear and 20 inch aero clincher front that were used by our rider, the former Junior World Sprint Champion (who came to attend Cal Berkeley Engineering). Those were custom cut spokes I did in my shop. I wanted so much to be precise and then short by 1mm to save weight. But thought twice and didn't do it. I also thought about alloy nipples and butted spokes but decided that weight wasn't a concern. Better to train on heavy spoked straight spoked wheels and brass nipples, and our rider was a pretty big guy on a semi-recumbent that would be pretty brutal on the rear wheel. I followed the formula and ended up with just another wheelset like I had always built. Our actual racing wheel set was a custom aero wheels from Campagnolo only used in competition. We set the collegiate HPV land speed record back in the day at Sac-State on a 2-wheel semi-recumbent with faring. 3 years later, I went back to visit the Mech. Engineers who were still at it but this time sponsored. Campy, Dexter Hysol Adhesives, Boeing, Ford Aerospace... all giving $$$. They were still riding on those training wheels, and later set the HPV world speed record on their own with their jr. world sprint champion rider somewhere in the Sierra Foothills. They had always wanted to beat Fast Freddy Markham. But their record lasted for a short time until someone broke their land speed record. The Sac-State competition bike was called "Concept Z." The World Record bike was called Z-prime or something like that. I wonder where those training wheels went. They were "bomb" proof, they claimed and heavier than hell! LOL! I guess it made riding the racing wheels feel lighter when it came time. Wonder where those guys are now? And where are those training wheels? I think I donated them.
Interestingly, the article pointed to by the OP mentions the HPV projects. I recall building the training wheels 4X 36 spokes sew-up rear and 20 inch aero clincher front that were used by our rider, the former Junior World Sprint Champion (who came to attend Cal Berkeley Engineering). Those were custom cut spokes I did in my shop. I wanted so much to be precise and then short by 1mm to save weight. But thought twice and didn't do it. I also thought about alloy nipples and butted spokes but decided that weight wasn't a concern. Better to train on heavy spoked straight spoked wheels and brass nipples, and our rider was a pretty big guy on a semi-recumbent that would be pretty brutal on the rear wheel. I followed the formula and ended up with just another wheelset like I had always built. Our actual racing wheel set was a custom aero wheels from Campagnolo only used in competition. We set the collegiate HPV land speed record back in the day at Sac-State on a 2-wheel semi-recumbent with faring. 3 years later, I went back to visit the Mech. Engineers who were still at it but this time sponsored. Campy, Dexter Hysol Adhesives, Boeing, Ford Aerospace... all giving $$$. They were still riding on those training wheels, and later set the HPV world speed record on their own with their jr. world sprint champion rider somewhere in the Sierra Foothills. They had always wanted to beat Fast Freddy Markham. But their record lasted for a short time until someone broke their land speed record. The Sac-State competition bike was called "Concept Z." The World Record bike was called Z-prime or something like that. I wonder where those training wheels went. They were "bomb" proof, they claimed and heavier than hell! LOL! I guess it made riding the racing wheels feel lighter when it came time. Wonder where those guys are now? And where are those training wheels? I think I donated them.
#8
Senior Member


Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 39,897
Likes: 3,865
From: New Rochelle, NY
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
There was an insert in our Sutherland's binder that the owners added on spoke length calculation. I was one of just two of us that actually used it. The other guys would pull reference spokes out of the box and line them up against a busted wheel to guess what the spoke length would be and then use the cutter. .
Builders kept notes, so they never had to calculate spokes for the same wheel twice. I used a simple calculation method based on the distance of holes from the centerline, the rim OD, and the drop to the top of the nipple. Then added correction (fudge) factors for the flange separation or CTF for rears, and could generally hit my target within 1mm either way. I still use this method because it's simple and reliable.
As Ric noted in his blog, spoke size availability was thin, and back then there was no UPS, FEDEX, overnight shipping. You had to place large orders with local vendors who delivered once a week, or combine with bike orders for truck freight. Parts orders from non local vendors went Railway Express, or Greyhound and had to be picked up at the terminal.
The logistics alone, quickly trained bike mechanics in how to make do with what you had.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
#9
aka Tom Reingold




Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 44,320
Likes: 6,603
From: New York, NY, and High Falls, NY, USA
Bikes: 1962 Rudge Sports, 1971 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Raleigh Pro Track, 1974 Raleigh International, 1975 Viscount Fixie, 1982 McLean, 1996 Lemond (Ti), 2002 Burley Zydeco tandem
FBinNY, do you remember Larry Duffus? I think he was the first person I witnessed building a wheel. He would use his memory and educated guesses for spoke length. Then he'd lace the wheel up to discover that he was right or wrong. Then he'd go from 3x to 4x if the spokes were too long or vice versa if too short. It was a long, iterative process.
__________________
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
#10
Senior Member


Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 39,897
Likes: 3,865
From: New Rochelle, NY
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
FBinNY, do you remember Larry Duffus? I think he was the first person I witnessed building a wheel. He would use his memory and educated guesses for spoke length. Then he'd lace the wheel up to discover that he was right or wrong. Then he'd go from 3x to 4x if the spokes were too long or vice versa if too short. It was a long, iterative process.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
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