Hi,

I am trying to install a new headset in my Cube Agree GTC (2010) carbon frame. The headset is an FSA Orbit ITA Internal/External HS. The bottom part of this headset is somewhat unfamiliar to me. It looks like this (the bike is upside down):




There is a steel cup pressed into the carbon headtube. It thought it would be possible to tap them out with a headset cup remover, like the Park Tool RT-1 or something similar. Unfortunately you can't tap it out, as the carbon above the cup actually has a smaller diameter:




So I think the only way to get the cup out is to force it out using a flat blade screwdriver. Is this the correct way to do this? I am afraid it will be harmful for the carbon frame... Does anyone of you have experience with this type of headset or do you know a better way to get it out?

Thanks for your help!

Kind regards!

Nigel

Big chance the cup is glued to the frame. Sometimes even you need something like a bearing xtractor to get those pieces out. The other detail is that the bike you have uses from what I can gather an integrated headset? you sure you about what you want to do? Some manufacturers use metal cups glued to the frames just for simplicity.

What is wrong with the headset you want to replace?

Either that's a uniquely bad design, or there's something else not clear in the photo. First of all, the photo is blurry, but there seems to be a pressed in sleeve below the steel race extending about 1/2" into the head tube. If so, it's possible the entire sleeve is supposed to come out.

OTOH, looking at the rim at the top edge of the race, there's seems to be a body filler or glue the cup may be bedded into.

There are ways to get these out, but I don't want to steer you wrong, and have you damage the frame. In your shoes, I'd look for a photo of the original headset (out of a frame) to get a sense of where the headset ends and the frame begins. Otherwise contact the maker to see what comes out and what stays in the frame, and/or if any adhesives were used.

Once you know (for sure) what needs to be removed, post fresh, and I or others will advise good methods.

I see exactly the same than FB, to me that cup is glued in place. If thats the case wonder if you got the wrong headset, with integrated headsets you change only the bearings because the cups are integrated in the frame. Good luck.

You have already removed the headset, now your trying to pull the frame apart. The cups you are attempting to remove are not part of the headset, but bonded into the frame, you can see the parts of the headset, and the installation here https://www.fullspeedahead.com/products/299/Orbit-I

You seem to be getting the description of the headset type you have confused, you mention internal and external, this frame has a IS Integrated headset, not an external (EC) To find the headset you need, use the S.H.I.S. or https://canecreek.com/headset-fit-finder

While I'm not sure of the details based on the photo, I am sure the above is wrong. The race the OP is trying to remove is the cup of a cup/cone bearing, so the one thing we do know is that it isn't a cartridge (sealed) bearing headset.

The question remains whether the race itself is part of a pressed in headset, or part of a bonded in place integrated system. I lean to the former, but need better photos. It could also be the cup of a drop in cartridge bearing that was worn enough to come apart, but from what I can see, that would be unlikely.

The lower headset bearing has come apart. Left in the headset cup (which is glued into the frame) is the outer race of the bearing. This can be identified by its steel construction and round bearing race. Your screwdriver is in the right place to remove it in the first picture. Some WD40/PB blaster etc to soak in and release it will help.

This is common with lower quality bearings which may not be retained well - and which do not have stainless races and as such will corrode, sticking to the aluminium cup.

A replacement headset will consist of not much - alternatively you can just replace the bearings with a quality set, effectively the same as a new headset.

- Joel

Thanks for all these quick replies. FSA's customer service have send me a schematic diagram by now, it was also them telling me that it is an internal (top)/external (bottom) headset and that this cup is supposed to be removed when the headset is in bad shape... They couldn't help me with the procedure of how to get it out. Maybe I should try to contact Cube first to see if they hae some more information.

Here you can see the diagrams (top on the left, bottom on the right):



Only part # 9 looks somewhat different in reality. It seems to me that the top 12 mm (the straight part) is actually part of the frame, it surely looks like carbon to me.

Bigger versions of the pictures in my first post can be found here:

https://plus.google.com/photos/110433584227309481954/albums/5953250939753843649

Thanks for the help!

FSA have sent you a schematic of a different headset. Yours clearly does not have an external lower cup, nor does the race in your initial pictures look like it would work with those sized balls. How about a picture of the rest of the stuff you removed from the headset, particularly the lower assembly, and the crown race on the fork?

- Joel

I was trying to get my head around it until this post.

Bam. Half a crapped-out cartridge.

Something flat to spread the load under screwdriver's fulcrum on the bottom of the head tube would be in order... or rather, a slide hammer attached to some internal puller jaws (which you'd need to grind to shape I bet) or something.

Some pictures of the headset (you can find the original ones at https://plus.google.com/photos/11043...50939753843649):

From left to right: overview-top parts-ball diameter of 3mm-lower parts



The ball diameter on the diagram is different indeed. On the diagram they are 6mm, in reality only 3mm...
The crown race is still pressed on the fork, I won't remove that untill I am certain to find a new compatible headset.

Lee,

The first rule for good wrenching is similar to that of Medic's Hippocratic oath, "do no harm". Everyone has his own pet theory about how to remove this headset, (including me) but it's based entirely on looking at poor quality photos. Better photos might help, especially an exterior side view.

But, your smartest move is to bring it to a knowledgeable dealer, who can put his eyes and hands on it, and figure out what needs to be done with a greater degree of authority than anyone here can.

The key issue is whether that race is part of a pressed-in assembly, or whether it's pressed or bonded on it's own. There's also the question of exactly what replacement headset you need. If you somehow manage to remove this but damage it in the process, then discover that you can't find the right replacement, you're screwed, Likewise if you severely damage the frame in the process of removal.

If I knew for sure, I'd help you. But without that certainty, I don't want the responsibility for leading you astray.

1st i see an integrated headset with bearings like that, sealed bearings are that expensive in europe? gezzz...

Maybe you can buy someone else's cartridge bearing bottom race and use it ,
instead of another loose ball in a retainer bearing..

knock it out ('rocket' tool?) .. and measure .. though the dimensioned drawing may be good enough
(9) 44x12

loose ball headsets , if they dont get slop will last a very long time ,
cartridge bearings just dont get the rattle space as they are made in adjustment.

looks like cartridge bearing to me. inner race has separated from the outer. outer race is rusted in place

Not disputing this as a possibility, however cartridge headset bearings are rarely angular contact bearings of this type. Also, the OP has a photo showing other parts, that argue against a broken apart cartridge bearing. As a matter of fact, the black part 2nd to the right looks like a pressed in cup (possibly from the opposite end of the head tube.

Looking at the photo, and the bike spec sheet, and FSAs site, I suspect that this isn't an integrated headset with drop in bearings, but a zero-stack model, which is essentially a press-in headset, which sits flush to the head tube. Look again at the photo and you can see what appears to be the pressed-in section deeper in the head tube. If so, this is pressed out with a split tube head cup remover, the same as any other pressed-in headset.

That said, I repeat my advice to the OP not to go by guesses (mine or anybody's) and let a knowledgeable person have a look and advise based on something more solid than poor quality photos.

I wonder if this is a "zero stack" headset, that is the cups are pressed into the flared ends of the headtube and bearing cartridges are placed in them. it's a variation on the integrated headset except the bearing seats aren't machined into the headtube.

Ghent surely has a bike shop in town.

Headset bearings are almost always angular contact bearings. Exceptions to mind are the token cadac downhill headset, and the si headsets used in cannondales.

- joel

almost all modern cartridge bearing headset are angular contact. the black piece with the fsa logo is a cone spacer. headset also looks to be 1 1/8 top bearing and 1.5 or 1 3/8 lower bearing

Hi,

In the end it indeed seemed to be a stuck outer race of a cartridge bearing. My LBS got it loose by applying lots of force with a screwdriver, just like I wanted to do initially. New bearings are in and no more developing play after each ride! This time I will get them out more frequently for a quick clean and regrease.

For anyone wondering which new bearings are needed for a Cube Agree GTC Race (2010):
Bottom bearing: TH Industries 1.5” ACB 36° x 45° 073#
Top Bearing: TH Industries 1-1/8” ACB 36° x 45° 873#

Thanks for the help!

Ya gotta love all the new and improved crap!

TH industries is the parent company of FSA so the FSA logo on the spacer is consistent with that.

SO the bearing rim part got frozen in there, hope the lbs put grease in there, you dont want that to happen again.