Originally Posted by 3alarmer (Post 17513407)

...look, if you want to keep going at this, I'm game for a couple more posts, but I dio have a short attention span, so you can't just repeat the same thing over and over again.

Here's something you might (or might not) want to consider. You seem to think for some reason that a properly tensioned wheel that has oil or grease in the threads of the spoke/nipple interface will loosen because of vibration. I (and I'm not alone in pointing this out to you) have constructed many and various spoked bike wheels, tensioned them to relatively high tensions, and not experienced the problem, as you describe it. So you might want to consider that if your spoke tensions on your finished wheels are inadequate to hold the tensions as built, maybe they are too low.

You will now tell me that you are going by the rim makers recommendations as to tension, and then repeat your point about the non-drive spokes on a dished wheel going to the low side.

All I can tell you is that if your wheels are tensioned so low on those spokes that they will unwind when ridden, you may be able to remedy it with spoke prep or Loctite.

But if those spokes are flexing so much they unwind under riding, they are flexing enough that your customer will doubtless experience premature failure of those spokes because of the fatigue induced by that selfsame flexing. My opinion is that youi are doing no one any favors. my opinion is based on a reasonable appreciation of what's going on in a wheel. I'm sorry that it hurts your feelings, but the fact that i am old does not mean I have not kept up with the technology. i just think you are making some assumptions about what's going on inside the nipples that has no basis in fact. I recall reading in one of Jobst Brandt's rants on this topic that he felt Wheelsmith produced and marketed Spoke prep because it was faster and easier to build wheels with lower tensions. So all your BS about honesty and service is based on a false premise. As is your understanding of the mechanics involved. If the odd spoke is loosening, you are undertensioning your wheels. Sad, but true.





It's long, but if you have a genuine interest in this topic, and are doing this stuff for money, you ought to read it and know about it. Your choice, amigo. No skin here.

Originally Posted by ColnagoC40 (Post 17513888)

Hurt my feelings on an internet forum? You're kidding right?

I'll take your invite for more posts as a sign that you are willing to debate further, without the run-away icon?

What happened to Jobst? Him and I had a couple of good debates somewhere around 1996. As with you, he came across pretty strong when someone's opinion was different to his own, but the discussions always had some intellectual content. I just wonder if he is still around?

He wrote a good book, but I don't believe he built wheels for a few Pro teams back in the day before everyone rode factory wheels.

The demands for a rider with a FTP of between 350 - 450 watts, training 6 hours a day, including a section of hill sprints at 20% gradient, are quite different to those of the recreational rider or racer.

Thanks for the link to Jobst old post, but lets try and look into a bit more detail of what he said:

Quote:


"I use 90w gear lube for eyelets and threads for new wheels, where Ican apply the oil to all the spokes at once by oiling the threaded endof the bundle and working them around until it is on all spokes. Forre-truing, I use 10w motor oil or the like with a fine tipped oil canwhere I can put a drop on the spoke-nipple and nipple-eyeletinterface. It isn't as good as gear lube but it gets in there whereit's needed while thicker oil would not, at least not in the time Icare to wait.Jobst Brandt"

He talks about when wheels have to be re-trued he uses a 10W oil.

So why did he have to re-true a properly built and stressed relieved wheel? Is it because the spokes vibrated loose?

Is it because some of the spokes, or part of the rim exceeded material yield strength beyond elastic limit? (this means components started failing beyond their strength limits and they are starting to deform or bend permanently)

This is what works for me and it is OK if you do things a different way and that works better for you:

1.) If someone brings me a factory built wheel, or a wheel hand built by someone else and it needs truing, depending on how bad it is, it can take my anywhere from 5 minutes to 15 minutes to true the wheel. I do it for free, but then I sit the customer down and explain to him that I am only willing to do this once, as if he wants this done properly, we have to re-build the whole wheel. He is welcome to go somewhere else for the next maintenance session.

2.) If I build a new wheel, or rebuild an old wheel with satisfactory rims and hubs, my wheels do not come back for re-truing, period. I go as far as giving the customer a warranty, excluding abuse due to potholes, curbs and long term spoke fatigue. I cannot remember the last time I got a wheel back. Most of my customers will ride my wheels until they eventually sell their bikes. Some who are elite riders with high power output and long 6 hour training days, will eventually, some day, come back with a broken spoke. I will replace the spoke for free, but if this pattern continues, I will re-build the wheel, the customer pays and he will normally be good for a couple of years. The latter is rare and the exception.

Finally, unfortunately in the good o'l US, a lot of technical mastery is gone, it now comes from Asia. This applies to mechanics not only on bicycles, but also on cars, pick-up trucks and motorcycles. The finer little things that make a big difference are mostly gone among today's throw away and replace society.

Again, you are welcome to flame, disagree, or whatever floats your boat. If you do things differently and believe you are a much better wheel builder, you are welcome to your own opinions and if it works for you, that is great!

As a footnote, I have never used the Loctite brand on bicycle spokes, however in lots of other applications especially when it comes to Harley Davidson.

Originally Posted by Dan Burkhart (Post 17513962)

I'm not joining the debate, I have my own methods and I don't feel the need to explain them, but just to address the what happened to Jobst issue, he had a serious crash a few years ago, and apparently he never recovered from it. Head injury I believe. Have not heard that he died, but has not been active.

Originally Posted by ColnagoC40 (Post 17514024)

Truly sorry to hear that. He was a great person. Was this a cycling accident, or something else?

Originally Posted by ColnagoC40 (Post 17513888)

Hurt my feelings on an internet forum? You're kidding right?

I'll take your invite for more posts as a sign that you are willing to debate further, without the run-away icon?

What happened to Jobst? Him and I had a couple of good debates somewhere around 1996. As with you, he came across pretty strong when someone's opinion was different to his own, but the discussions always had some intellectual content. I just wonder if he is still around?

He wrote a good book, but I don't believe he built wheels for a few Pro teams back in the day before everyone rode factory wheels.

The demands for a rider with a FTP of between 350 - 450 watts, training 6 hours a day, including a section of hill sprints at 20% gradient, are quite different to those of the recreational rider or racer.

Thanks for the link to Jobst old post, but lets try and look into a bit more detail of what he said:

Quote:


"I use 90w gear lube for eyelets and threads for new wheels, where Ican apply the oil to all the spokes at once by oiling the threaded endof the bundle and working them around until it is on all spokes. Forre-truing, I use 10w motor oil or the like with a fine tipped oil canwhere I can put a drop on the spoke-nipple and nipple-eyeletinterface. It isn't as good as gear lube but it gets in there whereit's needed while thicker oil would not, at least not in the time Icare to wait.Jobst Brandt"

He talks about when wheels have to be re-trued he uses a 10W oil.

So why did he have to re-true a properly built and stressed relieved wheel? Is it because the spokes vibrated loose?

Is it because some of the spokes, or part of the rim exceeded material yield strength beyond elastic limit? (this means components started failing beyond their strength limits and they are starting to deform or bend permanently)

This is what works for me and it is OK if you do things a different way and that works better for you:

1.) If someone brings me a factory built wheel, or a wheel hand built by someone else and it needs truing, depending on how bad it is, it can take my anywhere from 5 minutes to 15 minutes to true the wheel. I do it for free, but then I sit the customer down and explain to him that I am only willing to do this once, as if he wants this done properly, we have to re-build the whole wheel. He is welcome to go somewhere else for the next maintenance session.

2.) If I build a new wheel, or rebuild an old wheel with satisfactory rims and hubs, my wheels do not come back for re-truing, period. I go as far as giving the customer a warranty, excluding abuse due to potholes, curbs and long term spoke fatigue. I cannot remember the last time I got a wheel back. Most of my customers will ride my wheels until they eventually sell their bikes. Some who are elite riders with high power output and long 6 hour training days, will eventually, some day, come back with a broken spoke. I will replace the spoke for free, but if this pattern continues, I will re-build the wheel, the customer pays and he will normally be good for a couple of years. The latter is rare and the exception.

Finally, unfortunately in the good o'l US, a lot of technical mastery is gone, it now comes from Asia. This applies to mechanics not only on bicycles, but also on cars, pick-up trucks and motorcycles. The finer little things that make a big difference are mostly gone among today's throw away and replace society.

Again, you are welcome to flame, disagree, or whatever floats your boat. If you do things differently and believe you are a much better wheel builder, you are welcome to your own opinions and if it works for you, that is great!

As a footnote, I have never used the Loctite brand on bicycle spokes, however in lots of other applications especially when it comes to Harley Davidson.

Originally Posted by 3alarmer (Post 17514301)

...yep, you are definitely one of those guys. :)

Originally Posted by ColnagoC40 (Post 17514330)

Darn, and I was looking forward to an intellectual discussion......:crash:

Originally Posted by ColnagoC40 (Post 17514330)

Darn, and I was looking forward to an intellectual discussion......:crash:

Originally Posted by 3alarmer (Post 17513410)

and I'm getting the feeling you might be one of these guys. :twitchy:

Originally Posted by Jarrett2 (Post 17514500)

Me? I have an eye twitch? :)

Originally Posted by ColnagoC40 (Post 17513888)

Originally Posted by ThermionicScott (Post 17514776)

As I understand it from the archived Usenet threads I've read, this retruing was limited to occasions where he'd crashed and bent a wheel or needed to replace a spoke due to some other incident. The wheels don't seem to have ever needed attention otherwise, until the rim had worn out and he needed to replace that. :)

Originally Posted by ColnagoC40 (Post 17514955)

What is really of utmost importance, is that if that oil that Jobst used for re-truing is not hydraulic oil at exactly 10W, big problems. Using a light sewing machine oil, or a multi-grade, or in today's world a 0W weight would almost certainly cause the wheel to asplode. And with our new carbon technology, anything but 10W will cause first unremoveable stains and later disintegration of the resins holding the carbon fibers together. If you dare true wheels any other method, make sure you get the rider to sign a liability waver.