Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic and Vintage Bicycles: Whats it Worth? Appraisals.
Reload this Page >

197* Harding? Holdsworth rebrand? Any thoughts?

Notices
Classic and Vintage Bicycles: Whats it Worth? Appraisals. Use this subforum for all requests as to "How much is this vintage bike worth?"Do NOT try to sell it in here, use the Marketplaces.

197* Harding? Holdsworth rebrand? Any thoughts?

Old 01-22-24, 09:17 PM
  #26  
Newbie
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: High Desert above L.A.
Posts: 31

Bikes: Primary bike - late 70's gold ALAN Competition; mostly Campy with Huret Jubilee deraiileurs

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Liked 22 Times in 9 Posts
For those of you who remember C.Harding's Westwood Cyclery, Charlie himself or the old crowd like Hans Ort etc, a couple corrections and sad news. I read someone here mention that C. Harding's became or was replaced by Helen's. Helen's was a late 70's Schwinn shop on Santa Monica Blvd. that grew - wonderfully. I used to work with some of the people who ended up there. They opened a second shop IN Westwood. Charlie was south of Wilshire -never the twain shall have met. He simply closed because the crew of worker's aged out - David, John, Doug/Dudla, myself... we ran out of younger riders-friends to bring in to replace us and Charlie finally had family and Ireland to enjoy. Well, Charlie passed away December 13, 2023 and has returned to Ireland. He was a brilliant mechanic, knowledgeable beyond what I could learn while with him, and a pleasure to work with while still being at times an irascible Irish curmudgeon. He had his own opinions about many things, including "innovation" - like every time oblong chain rings "cycled" around under a new name - Bio Pace just one of many versions he appreciated for the thought but not the marketability; and about who was really profiting by all the advancements that wall us into new systems and lend to quick obsolescence ... draw ratios never matter to a friction shifter! Yes, new technology is amazing - but at the same time, the simplicity of friction shifting, cones, cups, bearings, and a tube of grease make for a cheap and easy time for a weekend warrior mechanic. I will miss him dearly.
GCBM is offline  
Old 01-24-24, 08:51 AM
  #27  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 20,304
Mentioned: 130 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3461 Post(s)
Liked 2,823 Times in 1,993 Posts
Harding’s was on Westwood Blvd. just north of Ohio Avenue and south of Wilshire. Prior to Charlie buying the shop it was owned by Sugdyn (sp) and Lynch. He worked for Hans Ohrt in Beverly Hills previously.
My parents purchased a pair of Carlton Catalina’s from Charlie in 1964. Terrific bikes. Most impressive was they weighed 24#, with the only alloy were the brakes and seat post, stem. (Bars on the men’s model)
Hans Ohrt opened a third location in Westwood Village above Wilshire in time for Christmas 1972. On Gayley Avenue. The second store was on Robertson near Pico. I mention that as that was the location that had the Masi territory, Charlie had a point and it was too close to the Gayley store. In two years this prohibition had gone away as Ohrt was a high volume seller and Charlie was not. For a time the Masi bikes were sold technically through the Robertson store. The reason for this was many of the Hans Ohrt employees raced, Masi was a race bike and or a wanna be a racer bike.
Charlie threw in the towel in ‘82?
Hans Ohrt sold the business to Helen’s in ‘86? It was a time after the Olympics for sure.
‘Helen’s had the advantage of assuming a 50 year lease. When that lease ran out, Helen’s pulled out in 2012, the rent factor in the Village was beyond what a bike shop could afford.

so, there was a crossing point of Charlie and Hans Ohrt but it was quite a ways back.
repechage is offline  
Old 01-24-24, 03:01 PM
  #28  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,177
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 117 Post(s)
Liked 71 Times in 51 Posts
I never worked for Charlie but learned tons watching him on my days off. May he ride with nothing but tailwinds in the next life! I now live in the home town of another Harding--the gangsta skater--and have always thought that a Harding bike would be a conversation piece here.
Feldman is offline  
Old 01-24-24, 03:10 PM
  #29  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 20,304
Mentioned: 130 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3461 Post(s)
Liked 2,823 Times in 1,993 Posts
Originally Posted by GCBM
For those of you who remember C.Harding's Westwood Cyclery, Charlie himself or the old crowd like Hans Ort etc, a couple corrections and sad news. I read someone here mention that C. Harding's became or was replaced by Helen's. Helen's was a late 70's Schwinn shop on Santa Monica Blvd. that grew - wonderfully. I used to work with some of the people who ended up there. They opened a second shop IN Westwood. Charlie was south of Wilshire -never the twain shall have met. He simply closed because the crew of worker's aged out - David, John, Doug/Dudla, myself... we ran out of younger riders-friends to bring in to replace us and Charlie finally had family and Ireland to enjoy. Well, Charlie passed away December 13, 2023 and has returned to Ireland. He was a brilliant mechanic, knowledgeable beyond what I could learn while with him, and a pleasure to work with while still being at times an irascible Irish curmudgeon. He had his own opinions about many things, including "innovation" - like every time oblong chain rings "cycled" around under a new name - Bio Pace just one of many versions he appreciated for the thought but not the marketability; and about who was really profiting by all the advancements that wall us into new systems and lend to quick obsolescence ... draw ratios never matter to a friction shifter! Yes, new technology is amazing - but at the same time, the simplicity of friction shifting, cones, cups, bearings, and a tube of grease make for a cheap and easy time for a weekend warrior mechanic. I will miss him dearly.
Helen’s was a Schwinn Shop on Broadway in Santa Monica.
WLA Bike and Hobby was on Santa Monica for decades, earlier about where the San Diego Freeway was, then moving to across the street from the public library.
very late they moved to the space that was Wilshire West Bicycles on Wilshire at Westgate. Wilshire West was an upstart shop that did Ok for a while, tried to get on the mail order train but Bikeology buried them.
Jim Holly of Griffon Cycles (one has to be careful, that name has been used by a number of different entities) got his start there.
repechage is offline  
Old 01-24-24, 03:18 PM
  #30  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 20,304
Mentioned: 130 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3461 Post(s)
Liked 2,823 Times in 1,993 Posts
Originally Posted by Feldman
I never worked for Charlie but learned tons watching him on my days off. May he ride with nothing but tailwinds in the next life! I now live in the home town of another Harding--the gangsta skater--and have always thought that a Harding bike would be a conversation piece here.
a curmudgeon definitely.
A Legnano dealer. I studied that Turquoise (gran premio?) one in the shop window often, had some interesting Hetchins, a yellow Hellenic and a translucent red one with very ornate chrome lugwork.
he really did not like kids. Too bad, as when I had saved enough to buy a road bike, I did not shop there.

and who could forget the 90 speed bicycle way up on a third tier rack. I tried to figure out the multiplication once, a five speed internal hub, 5 speed freewheel, at least a triple up front. He would not answer questions.
repechage is offline  
Old 01-24-24, 11:05 PM
  #31  
Newbie
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: High Desert above L.A.
Posts: 31

Bikes: Primary bike - late 70's gold ALAN Competition; mostly Campy with Huret Jubilee deraiileurs

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Liked 22 Times in 9 Posts
I have to laugh. Before I worked at Charlie's, I worked at that WLA Bike - a Schwinn shop at Corinth and Santa Monica that WLA Music expanded into after Bill (the owner) closed it around '81 or so. Bill moved his shop out and took over an existing Schwinn shop in the Valley on Reseda Blvd. Helen's was a direct competitor to our WLA for Schwinn but they opened up to other brands quicker than WLA... I forgot Helen's was on Broadway... I vaguely remember another shop on Santa Monica - that might have been Hans Ohrt's Santa Monica shop back in the day. I used to ride down to see the other shops and over to Marina Del Rey to check them out before the Bikecology shops starting buying up small solo shops. Helen's and MDR stayed strong. Yeah, Charlie had a lot of old stuff in his shop - so glad I never had to pull down that 90 speed before I moved on. Another tidbit - if you have ever seen Murder She Wrote, the classic 3 speed that Angela Lansbury rode in the intro and several scenes in the series was a rental from Charlie's. They wanted to buy - he would only rent for some reason and Hollywood accounting being what it it was/is -they agreed. Charlie made such a deal on the rental - I guess because classic Raleigh 3 speeds in decent shape were few and far between and that was what Angela Lansbury wanted (supposedly).

Apparently long before my time Charlie's shop had been some sort of Road Rally car racing supply shop because he still had all sorts of old road rally equipment up in the attic (including racing shoes with curved heel soles???) along with classic steel cycling components and a selection of frames that sometimes made it to hanging on the wall for potential sale - from Merckx, Cinelli, Alan etc -even a Girardengo tandem- and a set of wooden rollers -boy did those guys rumble. We built up the Cinelli and it was rented for a commercial filmed in Griffith Park. It was for Colorado National Bank and televised around the time of the 84 Coors Classic when they were advertising their "new" Automated Teller Machines while sponsoring the Coors. The commercial company came in for that specific bike as it was a fire engine red paint job. They asked for referrals to local cycling clubs to get extras and I referred them to La Grange and MDR. About that time Thurlow Rogers and Davis Phinney must have been "slumming" with those guys because they ended up as extras in the background of a fake race. I ended up being included - on that gold Alan that I had bought and built up with Cinelli bars, Campy headset, BB, crank, brakes and Huret Jubilee derailleurs. I was obnoxious enough to wear an old wool rainbow stripe world champion's jersey for the shoot so they pushed me towards the front behind their "Race leader" who suddenly in the middle of the race, needed to get cash - so he pulls up to an ATM on an island in the road, pulls his cash and jumps back on the bike, managing to still stay in the lead...ahead of me -with two Olympic riders just part of the pack. It was a fun day although I never saw the ad. I wonder if it ended up as described while they were giving us our instructions? Charlie and that shop created a lot of memories. We had "Johnny G" riding his track bike muscling his way everywhere before he became a spin savant, RAAM riders, Lou Ferigno bending cranks for that silly ABC Sports show where they used to have celebrities competing in sporting events and a few Hollywood stars thrown in to boot. And the curmudgeon neither wowed nor cowed by any of them -lol.
GCBM is offline  
Old 01-25-24, 08:55 AM
  #32  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 20,304
Mentioned: 130 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3461 Post(s)
Liked 2,823 Times in 1,993 Posts
WLA Bike & Hobby in the late 60’s started to carry Peugeot. Then 1971 or so carried Volkscycle. As any other Schwinn shop they were threatened, Schwinn wanted Schwinn exclusively on the floor, was a tough negotiation. Schwinn was getting pushback as the Varsity and Continental were not perceived as real adult road bikes, the Super Sports too, a fillet welded frame, just too close to a Varsity in appearance and the one piece crank.

Hans Ohrt was at little Santa Monica Blvd at Camden, at 9544. My first job during junior high school was there. Be hard for a 13 year old to get a legit job today.

Earlier than my time but Hans Ohrt fell out with Schwinn just before the Sting-Ray arrived. Schwinn was wanting to see the Varsity and Continental and other adult bikes on the sales floor, the shop did a good business in Schwinn kids bikes but not the full sized models. They agreed to part ways.

Charlie carried on, there was a Peugeot shop down a few blocks and across the street from him for a time, and a Raleigh shop on San Vicente in Brentwood, neither lasted very long.
the other curious shop was Braun Multiprises near the beach in Santa Monica, some interesting bikes like a Pogliaghi tandem. I went into the shop one afternoon as I was out on a training ride and had two punctures already, I was a few miles from home but not close enough, I bought a spare. They had some SoCal/Nevada district championship jerseys hanging up high on a wall. They were made a bit differently than the current. One asked if I knew what they were, “yes, I have one from this year”. The woman came emotionally apart. I found out later that their son won those and for an unknown reason something tragic happened later.
repechage is offline  
Old 03-30-24, 11:15 AM
  #33  
Newbie
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: High Desert above L.A.
Posts: 31

Bikes: Primary bike - late 70's gold ALAN Competition; mostly Campy with Huret Jubilee deraiileurs

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Liked 22 Times in 9 Posts
I'm getting to clear out a lot of old stuff from Charlie's stash (like these wood rollers he had and let me ride in the late 70's early 80's) and will definitely have some photos and questions for you folk. Like what the heck were almost double thick, wide tooth-spaced Campy chain rings for??? And anybody heard of "Bob Shoemaker"?

GCBM is offline  
Old 03-30-24, 11:02 PM
  #34  
Full Member
 
BMC_Kid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2021
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 357
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 115 Post(s)
Liked 358 Times in 151 Posts
Those wooden rollers are awesome! Would make for a great wall hanger.
BMC_Kid is offline  
Old 03-31-24, 02:20 PM
  #35  
Newbie
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: High Desert above L.A.
Posts: 31

Bikes: Primary bike - late 70's gold ALAN Competition; mostly Campy with Huret Jubilee deraiileurs

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Liked 22 Times in 9 Posts
I didn't find a specific thread to add these to but since Repechage checks in here now and then with his knowledge base he might have some knowledge about some things found in Charlie's things... on the left in the top picture, a standard Campy chainring - 48 teeth. On the right, something I had never seen - and I now have a few of these in different sizes - same diameter Campy chainring as the 48 on the left but more than double the thickness and very wide spacing between the teeth. This one is a 24. The thickness and spacing makes me think for a motorized vehicle - Derny bikes perhaps? I haven't seen anything online about thees but I haven't done the deep dive yet. So any clues folks?

GCBM is offline  
Old 03-31-24, 02:28 PM
  #36  
Newbie
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: High Desert above L.A.
Posts: 31

Bikes: Primary bike - late 70's gold ALAN Competition; mostly Campy with Huret Jubilee deraiileurs

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Liked 22 Times in 9 Posts
And since Repechage brought up the old shop name including "Lynch" (Ed Lynch) I thought he might enjoy a couple things I also found in storage - an old cycling trophy with a slip of paper in the base - the results of some rides in Golden Gate Park, May 31, 1948 - with ... Ed Lynch

GCBM is offline  
Likes For GCBM:
Old 03-31-24, 02:32 PM
  #37  
Newbie
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: High Desert above L.A.
Posts: 31

Bikes: Primary bike - late 70's gold ALAN Competition; mostly Campy with Huret Jubilee deraiileurs

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Liked 22 Times in 9 Posts
Ed Lynch: Olympic Cyclist 1948
https://www.gettyimages.fi/detail/uu...kuva/517246030
GCBM is offline  
Likes For GCBM:
Old 03-31-24, 02:41 PM
  #38  
Senior Member
 
juvela's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Alta California
Posts: 14,243
Mentioned: 415 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3801 Post(s)
Liked 3,323 Times in 2,170 Posts
-----

recall that when Ed Lynch passed many years back his heirs brought some of his bicycles and bits to Velo Sport Cyclery in Berkeley, California to sell for them

lots of track


-----
juvela is offline  
Old 03-31-24, 07:49 PM
  #39  
Newbie
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: High Desert above L.A.
Posts: 31

Bikes: Primary bike - late 70's gold ALAN Competition; mostly Campy with Huret Jubilee deraiileurs

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Liked 22 Times in 9 Posts
From what I read he rode for Cal. Berkeley... and that may have been the connection for Sudgen and Lynch shop in Menlo Park. From what I read he was a bit of a rebel who called out against east coast bias in the at-the-time cycling organizations that lead to a more geographical organization... There are more trophies but I have to see what they say or list -might have been his personal stuff left in the attic at the shop. He died in 80 if I recall correctly, but I didn't hear about there being any close connection at the shop so I didn't go searching for anything in that attic.
GCBM is offline  
Old 03-31-24, 07:54 PM
  #40  
Newbie
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: High Desert above L.A.
Posts: 31

Bikes: Primary bike - late 70's gold ALAN Competition; mostly Campy with Huret Jubilee deraiileurs

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Liked 22 Times in 9 Posts
These will be refurbished and ridden! I ordered the leather strap-uses what is now identified as antique treadle sewing machine leather strap with clip. I've seen images of old wood rollers using actual chains and cogs on the rollers as well
GCBM is offline  
Old 04-02-24, 09:50 PM
  #41  
Newbie
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: High Desert above L.A.
Posts: 31

Bikes: Primary bike - late 70's gold ALAN Competition; mostly Campy with Huret Jubilee deraiileurs

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Liked 22 Times in 9 Posts
I guess I answered my own question. I found a copy of the 1958 Campy Catalogue 14 which has Pista crank (pt 1051) with chain rings designed for 1" x 3/16" along with 1" x 1/8" and 1" by 1/8". Although I didn't see that in English until I saw a 1969 Cat 16 English edition.

Although I also found in the 1953 Cat 12 the Campy version of a "suicide" front derailleur,part 1011 where the shift lever is attached directly to the front derailleur on your seat tube... which I found in old stock as well.
GCBM is offline  
Old 04-11-24, 07:26 AM
  #42  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 20,304
Mentioned: 130 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3461 Post(s)
Liked 2,823 Times in 1,993 Posts
Originally Posted by GCBM
I didn't find a specific thread to add these to but since Repechage checks in here now and then with his knowledge base he might have some knowledge about some things found in Charlie's things... on the left in the top picture, a standard Campy chainring - 48 teeth. On the right, something I had never seen - and I now have a few of these in different sizes - same diameter Campy chainring as the 48 on the left but more than double the thickness and very wide spacing between the teeth. This one is a 24. The thickness and spacing makes me think for a motorized vehicle - Derny bikes perhaps? I haven't seen anything online about thees but I haven't done the deep dive yet. So any clues folks?

the thinner ring is a road ring 3/32” 144 bolt hole center.
the wider is an inch pitch or skip tooth Pista ring, note the bigger bolt circle, 151 BCD. for a long while both road and track used the bigger circle.
‘about 1967 the road rings went to the smaller circle to have a 42t small ring (and later 41t, but those were scarce and could have chain interference with the arms)
‘the Pista cranks phased in the 144 BCD in about 1974,1975. One could buy either new until the older version stocks were depleted.
repechage is offline  
Old 04-11-24, 07:29 AM
  #43  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 20,304
Mentioned: 130 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3461 Post(s)
Liked 2,823 Times in 1,993 Posts
Originally Posted by GCBM
And since Repechage brought up the old shop name including "Lynch" (Ed Lynch) I thought he might enjoy a couple things I also found in storage - an old cycling trophy with a slip of paper in the base - the results of some rides in Golden Gate Park, May 31, 1948 - with ... Ed Lynch

A loop was set up in Golden Gate Park- track bikes were used on the road. The curves were big enough to allow pedaling through the turns.
repechage is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Bike tinker man
Classic & Vintage
8
02-10-17 12:43 PM
etnimiki
Classic & Vintage
3
07-05-15 05:15 AM
ianpaschal
Classic & Vintage
15
12-04-14 02:17 PM
spicywith
Classic and Vintage Bicycles: Whats it Worth? Appraisals.
9
02-26-13 06:22 PM
foos1126
Classic and Vintage Bicycles: Whats it Worth? Appraisals.
3
10-16-12 04:44 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.