I'm have an option to buy a 1974 Carlton Catalina from a neighbor, frame only which is in pretty fair shape and, if I buy it, will likely equip it with as much period-correct parts I can find. What should be a reasonable dollar limit I should restrain myself to in buying the frame so as not to have too much in it when I get it finished?

Its all about condition, without pictures, I can't guess. The Catalina was a pretty nice bike, so the frame could have some good value.

On the other hand, accumulating all the period correct parts you will need will be fairly costly, and it is easy to get upside down value wise on building a bike, EVEN if the the frame is free. So the restraint should be more about your personal budget situation, and a guess as to your ability to find deals on the parts. Buy the parts one at a time via ebay for example, and you will certainly be upside down.

Complete bikes just about always make a better deal financially. To manage costs on a build, it is best to find a second complete bike to supply the parts, and to be flexible with the definition of "period correct" (and don't start chasing NOS parts!!!).

Thanks for the feedback I appreciate your insight. I got the frame at a good price and have all the time in the world to figure it out. I think I'll look for a suitable donor bike or perhaps a groupset that would make sense. It was originally purchased from Hans Ohrt bikes in Beverly Hills, appears in good shape and I'm digging it a lot.

This site may be of some use in your research.

The Carlton is, indeed, a pretty nice bicycle. Now, before jumping into money spending, you need to know if the bike will fit you, once built...


It would also be a good idea to ensure that the frame and fork sets are straight and not in serious need of repair. Remember, vintage light weight bicycles were/are fragile and often times pass through time experiencing some misalignment.

So, were I you, I would let us see some good clear pictures of the frame and include measurements. Let us know how long the seat tube is, measured from the center of the crank to the center of the intersection between the top tube and the seat tube. Report, also, your inseam measurement (floor and snug to your crotch). That should help determine if the bike will be an acceptable fit, or not.

Good luck with the bicycle. It is a worthy project, to be sure.

Thank you for your insight and advice. I appreciate it. The seat tube is 23 1/2" center to center and the top tube is 22 1/2" center to center. It may be a bit large for me, I'm just six feet tall but I knew that before I looked at it, I've another bike the same size and it rides okay for me and most importantly, I was looking to get a cool project regardless of what I end up doing with it.

The bike originally was sold by Hans Ohrt Bikes in Beverly Hills, CA, there's part of their label still on the bike. Mr. Ohrt was a racer and coach of the U.S. Olympic cycling team. I communicated with another LBS in LA regarding Mr. Ohrt and there's wonderful information out there about him and here in the forum and it's all pretty fascinating for me anyway.

I also communicated with Steve Maas who wrote the Carlton Catalina Restoration project and asked him about the original components his came with and he indicated the Huret Avitt deraileur and Williams cranks are not so great and recommended I try do something more modern or at least better. So I'm looking for a suitable donor bike locally and I'm sure I'll find suitable components one way or the other. Anyway, thanks again for your advice. Here are some photos.

I've heard sketchy things about the Huret Alvit RD. Probably best to avoid. I'm thinking that maybe Campy Gran Sport might be a group that will fit the era and offer good performance. Not sure of availability though, others can say. I love the lugs on the head tube. Very distinctive. Overall a very cool bike.

My Carlton was fitted with Benelux derailleurs. They were not horribly precise but worked well if you did not expect fast shifts...

I am not sure how many schwinn varsitys were made but I think they all had Alvit derailleurs.

Haven't had any luck finding a donor bike but managed to get some old Weinmann brakes and levers with Carlton hoods at a local bike coop for $5.00. Had the frame at another LBS looking for whatever and the guy tried to put a wheel on the rear dropouts and the dropout spacing was too small for, he said, a standard-sized hub. Maybe someone has some insight on this. Here's a photo of the dropout.

I imagine the drop out spacing is 120 mm (the standard for old 10 speeds) new wheels are spaced wider , often at 130mm. Older frames can be 'cold-set' to accept newer wheels, or you could find some narrower wheels to fit in without stressing the frame. Read This, it will help.

I assume you are talking vertical spacing, not horizontal.

The choice is yours, on a steel frame, you can spread that drop out. I had a bike I bought off ebay, seller did not properly protect the rear dropouts. As a result, they were pinched, and no axle would fit. I carefully bent it back. Don't get carried away.





thrifty bill

Just curious, but when something like this happens do you file a complaint, ask for a partial refund, etc? I've never had to go through this process yet thankfully, but what's the best solution to something like this?

I realize your case is relatively minor but say it was a more serious flaw.

Ahh , I assumed horizontal rather than a pinched DO, silly me.

It was a can of worms. Bike shipped via UPS, their position was that the bike was poorly packed. And looking at how it was packed, I agreed with them. As luck would have it, bike was "professionally packed" by Mailboxes Etc. And who owns Mailboxes Etc? You guessed it, UPS.

UPS position was to send the bike to their claim center. So I asked them: "Who is going to pack it?" Their position, just toss it back in the box. Yeah, right. It already took a beating getting here, give it another beating to your claim center, and nothing will be left. And then let the finger pointing begin... Paint was also chipped a fair amount due to stuff being loose in the box. The drop out damage was really minor compared to the paint damage.

In the end, it was a bike I had been looking for, for over 2 years. So I worked it out with the seller. Basically we were both screwed. He paid for professional service and did not get it, and I bought a near NOS bike that was no where near NOS when it arrived.

UPS really sucks on shipping bikes.

Sorry, I meant vertical. So does that mean they are pinched or were there different widths and if they are pinched, how do I go about spreading them? Thanks for your help.

I've just used pliers or small vise grips to spread open dropouts. Realize I was working on cheap bikes I didn't really care about, but the process is the same either way. Anything you can force/wedge in there will be able to open them up enough to fit a standard axle in. The dropout in your photo appears to be a stamped one which should be thinner and easier to bend than a thick forged DO like the one in Bill's photo.

Alternatively I suppose you could file the DO but that seems like a lot of work and I've never gone that route before.

Okay I will give it a try. Thanks

After doing a bit of looking and reading Sheldon Brown's description of older Raleigh's, I am thinking the dropouts aren't pinched but meant to accept a smaller diameter axle. This it seems would certainly limit availability of what I can use but I'm not too excited about the idea of spreading the dropouts. BTW the horizontal spread is 130 mm and while my original thread on this said it was a 1974 model, it is a 1964. I must have been having decade dyslexia when I typing the message.. The only information I can find for sure about this is this photo of another 64 Carlton. If any of you know who or where would be a definitive source for information I'm all ears. Thanks..

Yes, Sheldon Browns website has the proper procedure for filing dropouts...

I contacted a Carlton guy in England and it seems received the definitive answer:

The frameset that you have was built to take a standard rear axle and not a quick release axle, so this is the reason as to why you cannot fit a quick release axle. The cycle would have had LF Normany / Atom hubs on Dunlop steel 27" rims and amber wall Dunlop tyres.
Williams 3 pin chainset , TDC bottom bracket and headset fittings. Huret gears, GB bars and stem , Brooks leather saddle, Brampton pedals, velox plastic bar tape with screw in reg end plugs. Weinmann side pull brakes and levers with Carlton plastic hoods on the levers. Bluemels full mugduards and Bluemels pump.
Atom 5 speed freewheel and Regina chain.

I just got a 64 Catalina.

Cool, very cool. How do you like it?

To heck with bolt on axles. The frame has already been cold set to 130mm (certainly would not have come that way in 1974) so I would say go ahead and spread/file the dropouts. Then you'll be able to run any wheel you want.

Unless you're going for a 100% correct restoration which will be extremely expensive starting from a bare frame.

The inside spread on the dropouts is 120mm. The outside measurement is 130mm. It's a 64 not 74. Sorry for the confusion..