Braking power for C&V side-pulls vs. modernish V brakes?
03-31-15, 12:46 PM
#1
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Braking power for C&V side-pulls vs. modernish V brakes?
So I'm pretty new to this C&V thing, and I love how my new-to-me Fuji America rides compared to my 2005 Trek 7200.
However one issue I have with the bike is that the braking power is not nearly as good. I replaced the cables and tightened the brake clearance, and it doesn't feel like the braking is dangerously ineffective, but as a 210 pound guy, the difference is very noticeable.
Is this just a factor of technology that's almost 30 years older, or should my classic bike be braking just as well?
However one issue I have with the bike is that the braking power is not nearly as good. I replaced the cables and tightened the brake clearance, and it doesn't feel like the braking is dangerously ineffective, but as a 210 pound guy, the difference is very noticeable.
Is this just a factor of technology that's almost 30 years older, or should my classic bike be braking just as well?
03-31-15, 12:54 PM
#2
What??? Only 2 wheels?
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Newer brakes, especially double-pivot, are very good indeed. But older systems work well enough if they are in good order. Did you replace housings as well as cables? Did you replace the pads? New shoes, especially the "upgrade" pads like Kool Stop, are much better than 30 y.o. original pads.
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03-31-15, 01:02 PM
#3
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Newer brakes, especially double-pivot, are very good indeed. But older systems work well enough if they are in good order. Did you replace housings as well as cables? Did you replace the pads? New shoes, especially the "upgrade" pads like Kool Stop, are much better than 30 y.o. original pads.
03-31-15, 01:17 PM
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210# is nothin! That's my weight, too. I would upgrade to koolstop pads if you are worried. THere is definitely a different in stopping power between old brakes and new.
03-31-15, 03:08 PM
#5
What??? Only 2 wheels?
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I suppose there are folks here who will argue, I mean discuss about how modern levers and calipers have such-and-such higher mechanical advantage (at the expense of needing the pads closer to the rim, which means well-trued wheels). I don't know one way or the other. I do know that my modern systems brake very well, but my older systems sure brake well enough.
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03-31-15, 03:29 PM
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What make/model/year of brakes and what calipers does the bike have? Also, are these the old pads or new? The old pads may have hardened with time and never get back to the original grip which still would be less than say a modern KoolStop.
Ben
Ben
03-31-15, 03:49 PM
#7
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Even with new pads, cables and housings your vintage brakes won't stop as well as new dual pivot brakes. That's just part of the C&V game. They worked well enough for Eddie Merckx and Greg LeMond to win a couple of little races so they should suffice for us.
03-31-15, 04:00 PM
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I think machined brake surfaces on all newer wheels probably make half of the difference.
My Shimano dual pivots on machined wall - stop really hard.
My Shimano dual pivot on older polished alloy wall - stop pretty good.
My older side pull on older polished alloy wall - just stop.
I had a pair of Scott Professional dual pivots that were just not as good as Shimano dual pivot calipers.
My Shimano dual pivots on machined wall - stop really hard.
My Shimano dual pivot on older polished alloy wall - stop pretty good.
My older side pull on older polished alloy wall - just stop.
I had a pair of Scott Professional dual pivots that were just not as good as Shimano dual pivot calipers.
03-31-15, 04:41 PM
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The Kool Stops are just better.
The tri-color dual pivot sidepulls stop better than the tri-color single pivot sidepulls.
Your single pivot brakes with new Kool Stop pads will stop quite well.
If your bike is not stopping well, or as well as you think it should be- get new pads.
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03-31-15, 04:43 PM
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I put koolstops on the universal 88 brakes on my torpado. rims are well worn ambrosio elite. I have more than enough braking power to lock the front wheel and go over it. I don't advise that.
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03-31-15, 04:50 PM
#11
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When comparing braking systems we should be clear about the different aspects of braking being compared.
The vague term "stopping power" seems to get used for the ratio of braking torque at the wheel to braking effort at the lever. I would call this mechanical advantage, but whatever. Newer brake systems tend to have a higher ratio than older ones. Having this ratio high is useful if your hands aren't very strong, or you make prolonged descents during which you use the brakes extensively.
For me the most important aspect is maximum available braking torque. Any properly installed and maintained system, new or old, should have enough available torque to lock up either wheel. As long as this much torque is available, it is up to the rider to dole it out as needed, up to the limit.
Other, secondary factors are:
sensitivity - more to do with system friction (see below) than mechanical advantage - for better clarity, I'd call this relative sensitivity
linearity
hysteresis (related to system friction, i.e. in the levers, cables and calipers, not between the pads and rim)
Newer systems tend to be better in these secondary factors also.
The vague term "stopping power" seems to get used for the ratio of braking torque at the wheel to braking effort at the lever. I would call this mechanical advantage, but whatever. Newer brake systems tend to have a higher ratio than older ones. Having this ratio high is useful if your hands aren't very strong, or you make prolonged descents during which you use the brakes extensively.
For me the most important aspect is maximum available braking torque. Any properly installed and maintained system, new or old, should have enough available torque to lock up either wheel. As long as this much torque is available, it is up to the rider to dole it out as needed, up to the limit.
Other, secondary factors are:
sensitivity - more to do with system friction (see below) than mechanical advantage - for better clarity, I'd call this relative sensitivity
linearity
hysteresis (related to system friction, i.e. in the levers, cables and calipers, not between the pads and rim)
Newer systems tend to be better in these secondary factors also.
Last edited by old's'cool; 04-01-15 at 04:46 PM. Reason: tense, clarity
03-31-15, 04:55 PM
#12
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Still using the Old Single pivot Campag Brakes on my Road Bike since the Mid 80's .. did slip in new Kool Stop Replacement Pads
MA of newer Aero levers is better than the original ones But even they worked fine , with a Manly Grip.
MA of newer Aero levers is better than the original ones But even they worked fine , with a Manly Grip.
03-31-15, 05:07 PM
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Just how old is your Fuji America? The real question is ... does it have steel wheels? If yes, stopping will be less effective than with alloy rims. A wheel upgrade may solve your problem.
03-31-15, 07:04 PM
#14
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It's a '79 with the stock alloy rims. It's not like I have a *problem* per se, just that it doesn't brake as well as my 25-year-younger hybrid.
03-31-15, 07:14 PM
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Do you mean the old ones cannot possibly stop as well, or the old ones cannot stop as well for a given hand force?
03-31-15, 07:15 PM
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Agreed! Grrrrr ... the sound of manly gripping!
03-31-15, 07:27 PM
#17
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I would say for a given hand force. Given enough hand force it should be possible to lock most wheels with either generation of brakes in normal situations. Riding on the hoods, I can't generate enough force to lock the front wheel with Campy NR brakes but I can with Campy Chorus dual pivots.
03-31-15, 08:00 PM
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In general, a single-pivot side pull caliper will require more effort than a modern dual-pivot caliper, but whether that makes it "less effective" is a subjective judgement. If you're accustomed to using dual pivot calipers, you may find the additional effort to be bothersome; if you're accustomed to single-pivot side pull calipers it's not an issue.
03-31-15, 08:59 PM
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With older side pull brakes it is often not to your advantage to have the brake pads riding really close to the rim when the brake is at rest. If you give yourself a bit more travel on the brake lever, quite often the result is that you get more braking leverage. Its worth experimenting to see if it helps. That- and just get the Kool Stops, you will wonder why you waited so long.
04-01-15, 08:28 AM
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Even the worst brakes can work well with careful setup and good pads. I replaced dual pivots with these Varsity brakes because I wanted to keep it vintage. The pads are Mathausers. I don't miss the dual pivots. It still has the aero levers, and I think I'll keep them.
I even got them to stay centered, but it took a lot of fiddling.
I even got them to stay centered, but it took a lot of fiddling.
