Yes, a new thread with lots more photos, especially once you begin building it up into a bike proper. This is destined to become a beautiful bike and I for one would like to see it in its completed form.

The Bicycling article does indeed note that, at the time, Giovanni Pellizzioli was 39 and "presides over a spacious modern shop that churns out about 2,000 frames each year." After he sold the name, did he stick around in a management role for a time?

I think yours is older than the one in the magazine after reviewing the pic that shows the chainstay buttress at the rear of the BB shell. The one in the mag pics shows the spool-shaped kind whereas I would think that more plain cylindrical one on yours would be an earlier feature. Also, it seems "iper" translates loosely as a superlative, so "Iper Ciocc" can be thought of as similar to "Colnago Super" or "Regina Extra".

If you take a pic of the other side of the brake bridge we'll be able to tell you if the frame is designed for nutted or recessed brakes.

DD

It ALSO doesn't have the Pelizzoli signature decal, but since the rest of the decal set looks "early and correct' I'd put it down to yours being earlier than the San Cristobal World Champ results, I don't think it's a repaint with newer "old style" decals.
Another minor point: different TT cable guides.
And one more trivia note: there was a video wherein a guy from USA (Mason?) who speaks good Italian takes a broken frame to Pellizzoli's current shop (NOT the 2000/frames/year operation) and films THE MAN replacing the major tube (either seat or down tube) on a frame with NERVEX PRO lugs! IIRC.
or I hallucinated it all. THAT must be one VERY EARLY example, and IIRC it certainly had early graphics before all was torched and scrubbed away.

I have been scrutinising the photos I have more indepth.

The only pic I have that looks like your chainstay thimble looking bridge is the one currently on the Steel-VIntage website which is 1977 (certificate of authenticity).

The 1979 Ciocc on ebay (the gold plated one) and the one on acciaiosolocorsa.it, have the same TT cable guides. From sideways, looks like a triangle/pyramid.

The 1978 Ciocc, the yellow one on Zugzwang and LFGSS has the same TT cable guides as mine. Kinda round ones. The decals on the LFGSS are the new ones since it was refurbished by Pelizzoli. Everything else the same. Again the only difference is that my frame is missing the signature/MSC decals on the TT and Globe decal on the seattube.

At the moment, I leaning more towards 1978.

I have put all the specs on a spreadsheet for easy comparison

BTW: some more trivia regarding the World Champ races that the "globe" decal commemorates: the August 1977 win in San Cristobal (Venezuela) as in the Amateur Road race won by Corti, and the 2nd place finish in Nurburg, 27 August 1978 was in the Men's Road Race by none other than Francesco Moser! I did not know Moser rode a Ciocc! So the globe decal, even an early one like my frame had, cannot have been made prior to about September 1978. I wonder if there was a "missing link" globe that only listed the San Cristobal Gold win before the Nurburg Silver. If so I have not seen one.

Same here, I have only seen the globe decal with both 1st SC and 2nd Nurrenberg. I think yours would be late 1978 to 1979 as I believe Pelizzoli change the normal C to a C with a tail just before he sold it in the early '80s.

I am also starting to think that my frame will be earliest, late 1978 because of the portecatena on the dropout (despite having no MSC or globe decals, that is still a mystery) and again due to the lettering, maybe not later than 1979.

Pelizzoli may have a few iteration during that time.

I found the decal with just the San Cristobal win on a purported 1979 Ciocc frame. Adding to the research

ciclicorsaclassico.com/product/1979-gold-plated-ciocc-san-cristobal-campagnolo/

Nice researching! Never seen that one until now...plus looks to be a "show" frame with "gold plated" lugs and rear triangle...

Is it possible for campagnolo to already started drilling their 1010B dropouts for portacatena even before the show in late 1977?

If that is a possibility, then it will explain why my frame does not have the MSC and globe decal. That it is a late 1977 San Cristobal frame before Pelizzoli started applying the decals to his frames. I am only guessing since it will take some time to design and produce the decals after Claudio Corti's win. I am probably grasping at straws trying to explain my no MSC decal mystery.

Anything's possible, and the ways of business in Italy were then, and now, mysterious (sometimes with intent). Hearsay is that the short Campy dropouts were forged for them by a contract firm that ALSO made forged items for others, including GPM, but can't recall the name (possibly Tecnociclo or Everest). So depending on how Campy worked with a contractor they MIGHT have ordered the DOs before the portacatena system was ready for release, but from the "catalog trail" the DOs and PC items (chainsupport and shift levers) were released by Campy at the same time. Doesn't mean it actually happened that way. It's one of those "gray areas" that may someday be nailed down by better sleuths than me. Too bad so many builders (especially Italian) did not use serial numbers with the date worked in.

Hi all,

Yes, that's my old video of Giovanni finally pronouncing and translating his nickname. I just got off the phone with him and after a LONG conversation, have a few more things I can offer... I hope ANY of it is useful or at the very least, interesting!

Gio was born in 1942 and at 25 built his first Ciöcc in 1967.

Here's an interesting one... my friend Claudio wasn't the first Corti to win aboard a Ciöcc. His brother Mario won the Vuelta de la Juventud Mexicana in 1971 for C.S. Fiat as a dilettante. Check out this image...



The Corti's, like Giovanni, were born in Curno. The first Ciöcc frames had just a "C" decoration, taken not from the nickname, but from the town Curno, which then merged with two other locales to form Curdomo, a model name used today under the brand Pelizzoli. Evidently, as Italian towns expanded there was plenty of name shuffling - reminds me of the direction Iowa schools systems are going!

Branding: The "C" with tail was inspired when Giovanni saw a Cimatti model with a similar tail. His new logo was met with consternation by the moto brand but was easily explained away in that his tail was curved while theirs was straight. When asked the exact timing of this, his only recollection is "Certainly after Claudio's win". Take that with a grain of salt though. I have seen mixed frames where the seat stay cap has no tail while the original decals do. Italian inventory planning of small raw materials was never precise!



Iper: Yes, literal translation is Hyper, supposedly "better" than Super. BUT - this name was applied to bikes sold in a local Curno/Bergamo bike shop owned by a close friend of Giovanni's! If you see this on a bike... I suggest buying it, as it represents a very narrow production range for a local marketer, hence rare and likely of top production - reputation locally was everything!



He names his Golden period of Ciöcc as 77-81 or 82... top of his head, he can't remember exactly when it was sold! He still retains the rights to the brands Gion Italia (Italian spelling of John) and John the Star U.S.A. I've been in his shop a number of times and have literally spent weekends there fishing around his piles of old junk frames - I've never seen evidence of a John the Star frame. It also deserves a good story, and there is one...

He got a phone call from a company in Milan threatening to file a suit against his use of U.S.A. Not sure the legal validity of such a case - we're talking Italy here. Giovanni replies with a question... 'well, what do you think U.S.A. means?!?' and the reply is obvious, followed by 'well, what do YOU think it means?' to which Giovanni replies his unassailable use of "Unione Saldatori Artigiani". The agent goes silent and the Union of Artisan Framebuilders never hears another word about the case.



The crew...

Hope this was interesting!

Thank you for the post. It is very interesting to know more on Pelizzoli and Ciocc during his time. When would you be releasing your part 2 of your YouTube video 😄.

Your info on Iper could possibly explain why my frame is a San cristobal but doesn’t have the decals? Do you also know the significance of the serial numbers on some frames and not on others. Did he number a batch for a specific shop or period? You definitely fill in quite a big hole in Pelizzoli Ciocc history but still many more holes to fill 😅. Also your info on Claudio’s brother’s frame explained why earlier ciocc frames have a heart rather than club panto in the downtube.

I am still hoping Pelizzoli will eventually reply to my email as well for more info 😊

I think the true answer there lies in my firmly-held belief that guys like Giovanni made what they made with what they had sitting there available to them that day and didn't worry about if the C had a tail on it for that model in August of that year. More like... "hey Samuel, do this one up with white decals with a black outline". Samuel looks in the drawer and grabs the first white decal with black outlines, certainly open to interpretation.

This is an example... Samuel has only recently been in charge in the grand scheme of things, but a nice example of what I think could've taken place in the late 70's.

Serial numbers are a totally different story that I haven't started on, even with my beloved Tommasini's. I just takes 'em as they come and try to learn as much as I can, within reason.

I did push him on the question of post-sale activity. He says that in the 80's and 90's he did a lot of terzista work for Maschiaghi (especially the Coppi line) and his own work during that time frame would have been under the Gion Italia or John the Star U.S.A. Based on numbers that I've seen (100% Gion and not John), I think 95% of his production was for Coppi!

I'm very interested in MS and Max frames and he says that there certainly are some Max Gion Italia and Coppi frames out there. Next time, I'll ask more about his John the Star U.S.A. work. If there ever was an Italian-dreamed up English name for a bike that'll "take the market by storm"... That's it!

No more video from it, but I did post a few photos of the completed bike. It gets used regularly on these here Iowa roads!

Oh, I forgot to mention that he's very proud of the work he did with many Soviet-era track team victories, notably with the Polish national team. That brought back to mind the earliest Ciöcc decals that I've seen...





It's crazy though... nine years after my first post about this, I'm back to ranting on about Ciöcc decals again! OK, OK, I'm in Illustrator tracing the large image I have of that decal. I know of a couple guys who would want/use them!

That last bit about the really old logos got me going through my Ciöcc image folder (it's quite large). I'll get around to posting some of those really old ones soon enough...

Was the San Cristobal cHampionship win logo used often before the 77 and 78 globe logo?

WOW! Thanks Mrjay for this and for ALL you have done to 'connect the dots' and fill in so much of the murky history of Ciöcc: your contributions are priceless!!

mrjav, I just checked out your bike link and that is one very nice Ciocc. I noticed your close up shot of Musone name on the dropout that it has the portacatena holes, but your youtube description said that you were restoring a 1973 frame?

Yeah, never caught that one before. thanks. My blog post states 77/78, which is what I'm going with. Reason is - portacatena, non tail C seat stay caps (ignore the fork, which is new). It's also why I built it up with pre-CPSC Nuovo Record and put on the earlier decal with just Corti's win. This was never meant to be a show bike, just an old Ciöcc that I found in the back of the shop with an interesting twist (team bike, racer's name, Nervex). I also go by the old adage that it took time for things to hit the market, so an older group could find it's way onto a newer frame - but also that over time, as things wear out, they get replaced with newer stuff. You can tell I'm not much of a stickler when it comes to a rider.

I later found out that it was built by Giovanni and high best guy at the time, Candido Bonati, whom I've never managed to track down.

Some fun decal work on a Sunday... Now the hard part, and most delicate - the Ciöcc logo. This thread has finally taught me how to type the umlaut's and commit to memory! So, no more copy/paste!

Maybe some day someone can use it. I'm reaching out to my decal guy to see if he's interested. I know an old framebuilder in Italy who beat cancer who would be interested in getting MANY of these!

Of course, this has little to do with the San Cristobal, so sorry for hijacking this thread!

More good stuff, thanks again mrjav! Speaking of decals I'm curious who you use to print. I drew up THIS set to replace my own MSC but when went to get quotes could not come to terms with ANYbody, including a guy who custom-printed for me years back.
If anybody wants copies of these PM me about sharing, but before anybody asks I am NOT relinquishing copyrights as TWO of the printers had demanded! :0(

BTW, the 2 small inline CIOCC were the ones on the chainstays, the "vertical stacked" was used on head tube.

Thanks mrjav and keep the info coming.
Thanks unworthy1 for th decal offer. I am looking at Cyclomondo to get the signature, MSC and Columbus decal but still looking for the decal with just SC win. Based on the info provided by mrjav and I am going to say that my frame was built for the Iper Ciocc shop to sell probably before Giovanni got decals produced after corti’s win and to also account for the portacatena dropouts but before the nurburg in Aug 1978. So early 1978 ��.

I really think that the 77-84 timeframe is going to be the toughest period to nail down. There was just so much going on with the San Cristobal what with the two decals, Corti's win, C with a tail, CPSC and portacatena! In my mind, almost anything goes! Of course, I'm not entering anything in a show or trying to present any type of uber/iper-accurate model! (pronounced "ee-per", like "keeper").

I started typing a query as to the legality and rights ownership of repro decals and it led me to this thread. Well worth a read, as the subject is interesting to me. I'm doing it as a service and passion for a brand, not to mention personal connection to the original owner of the mark and the guy likely being asked to restore more of these than anyone. Interesting that people legally can demand rights for something that technically is not legal, just not pursued. But, I get it. I do custom kits for a living and deal with it daily. Illustrator, too!

I have been googling CPSC and it is bugging me enough (since I couldnt find the answer) to ask, "What is CPSC?"

Do you think you could draw the SC Win logo? I am hoping to put that one on my frame. Can't find it anywhere else that I can buy from.