While a top shelf '70s may be your ultimate grail Bianchi don't sell the '80s bikes short especially the later '80s ones. The Formula Two tubed bikes from '86-88 are great riders and don't command the premium of the older ones and if you willing to stoop to owning a non Celeste example it may be even cheaper. Most of the Bianchis I am keeping an eye out for now are not Celeste and some were not even made it Italy!

The first thing I look at is the brake cables; if they don't come out the TOP of the brake lever hoods --- too new. YMMV.

So true and that's a bevy of beautiful bikes!

This one will be at a duathlon in MS in August. I really didn't know these were in the C&V category. I was just looking for a used bike to fix up and use for general riding and duathlons. Now, I'm slliding down that C&V slippery slope and looking for another C&V.
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=467781

There doesn't appear to be an authority who can answer the question definitively. That's fine with me. There has been debate about the cut off being 20 or 25 years. I am not sure that time is the right criteria for determining the answer. We all have our perspectives of what the critiera are and how we weight them.

An engineer would break the problem subject down into parts and determine the answer by parts, i.e. what would you consider a C&V frame? What characteristics must it have/not have?
tubing - which onces?
Lugs - which ones?
Seat cluster configuration - most notably fastback seat stays vs socketed like the mid 80's Treks (applies to DO's too).
Internal tubing for brake lines or shift lines - yea/nay
Braze ons - which and where or none
Drop outs - Style or manufacturer
Dimensions - Almost dictated by intended use but even then there were variations driven by the time period and the general trend.
Paint - an example is the 80's and the crazy paint schemes most notably Colnago's
Chrome - all, part or none

Then we can discuss the fork.......

I've been tandem shopping. There are a ton of decent quality fillet-brazed Burleys and Santanas out there dying on the vine because they were built with 27-inch wheels and the "opposition" group of Suntour/Sugino/Diacompe, and in order to be brought up to code they need a new 700c tandem wheelset, cassette, derailleurs, and shifters, in addition to refresh with cables and wrap and seats, making the price for the project more or less the same as buying a much newer welded aluminum Cannondale or Trek that already has all that.

Thank You. The MegaProXL, carbon fork, has since moved on to a new home. It was a nice bike but for some reason we just never jelled.

I have 2 bikes that I don't consider classic / vintage... a 1989 Trek 1400 Aluminum and a 97 Lemond OCLV carbon fiber. I have a couple more that I think are on the fence, but I do consider my 89 Trek 660 True Temper steel to be classic / vintage. All my bikes have friction (or dual friction/index) downtube shifters and road pedals w/ toe-clips and straps.

Edit: To me (and likely only to me) the following make a bike "non-vintage / classic" : Index shifting, cassettes, dual-pivot brakes, clipless pedals, molded carbon fiber, oversized aluminum tubing,
braze on front derailleurs, external seat post clamps, deep profile rims, brifters & thread-less steerer tubes.

The age of the machine is less important than assuring that it has never been ridden at night by a "homeless beggar" wearing dark clothing.

-Bandera

PM sent.

I agree with that- to further my point.

IMO something doesn't become desirable just because it's old. It *may* be desirable because of it's rarity in relation to how old it is. For me, it's got to do with how things were built at the time they built them.

As you're probably aware, the word "vintage" comes from wine- and the vintage of the wine is from the season in which the grapes were grown and the wine was made.

It's not that 1941 was almost 75 years ago- and not all wines from 1941 are regarded as good- but apparently, the 1941 Inglenook Cabernet Sauvignon is considered one of the best wines evAr.

For me and old guitars... in 1969 Gibson was bought out and was owned by a conglomerate known as Norlin. It's not so much that Norlin owned Gibson- but they instituted changes in the guitars- some people like the changes, some people just grew up with the changes thinking they were "normal." IMO- the plastic-y feeling finish, the much lighter rosewood used on fingerboards, 3 piece Les Paul tops, and those gaudy wide headstocks... those things weren't improvements- so the instruments made *before* Norlin owned the company were considered better- and IMO- THOSE are the vintage Les Pauls- not the 70s stuff. The 70s stuff is just "old" to me.

With bikes and me, I think SIS makes a good cutoff... but Suntour's contributions to bicycling were huge to me- so IMO, after Suntour, there was a monsterous shift towards Shimano. IMO- that's where the line is crossed- when Shimano assumed global domination. It affects all levels of bikes, everywhere-

I hear you! All Bianchi's are special in my opinion maybe it's the connection with Campagnolo. Still keeping my eye out for an alloy framed daily sportiv that I'm not too precious about but worth looking after and well sorted.

I think it was at a race in early spring of 1976. The Michaels Cyclery racing team shows up with jerseys with vertical lettering on the sides, under the armpits, so that it reads Michaels when the rider is stretched out on the bike. Same was true on their shorts. Michaels spelled out on the sides, not horizontally along the bottom of the shorts. It wouldnt be too much longer and the one piece lycra skin suit would be common. But that first sighting of a Michaels rider, and it was a guy from Madison , WI, can't remember his name, that ushered in a new age of bike racing.

So my friends and I would refer to, "back in the days of horizontal lettering on wool shorts". That defines vintage to me.

I once briefly knew a girl named Celeste. That I still think about her occasionally makes her a classic. (Well, to be honest, I hadn't thought about her in years until right this second, so maybe not).

And I would love it it I could come across one of those Burleys or Santanas ones in our size for a good price. I love a good project, spreading the cost out over months of a build is good, but cost shipping is often a limiting factor (as is just finding one made for both captain and stoker who are both 6' or over). Maybe the market will drop enough on them that the costs will become doable.

I sell a fair number of bikes that are older than the rider. In that case, it is definitely vintage when you can say, "it was built before you were born!" Just 2 days a go, a Fuji Gran Tourer I sold was about twice the age of the buyer.
:thumb:

Enjoy your search but patience pays. Before you decide on some later C'dale or Trek, do take them on a long ride with your riding partner. Crucial is the stoker experience. Keyword being 'shocked'.

Our '80 Ishiwata tubed Santana, fillet brazed by Ross Shafer (founder of Salsa) is a luxury liner. It checks all the right boxes as a classic and also vintage like components similar to bikes going way back in years.

Top tandem's are lighter today but you can't beat the ride of these early Santana. I do occasionally loan it out and all who's ridden it are amazed. Most are so accustomed to today's harsh ride's, and this includes tandems. So when they float along on this Santana, it bends their mind. Truly a treat to ride.

As for components, I'm one that enjoy's the early stuff, so I might be biased. Though for awhile was considering updating to STI, a wheelset with disc brakes. But then again, I've seen other's having nuisance issues, temperamental with chain's, always needing tweak adjustments, etc.. Screw that.

In brief, the build of ours is ready for everything and rock solid reliable. Admit the sum of it is heavy though is a wall climber with triple TA crankset, Suntour shift group w/ bar-ends, Mafac Criteriums cantilvers + Arai drum drag, Brooks Imperials, Phil hubs + b.b.. Never have had to mess with brakes, hubs or bottom bracket! Its that good.

The only thing I would like is to rid of the 27". Not happy with any of todays 27" rubber for tandems. There's a GVWR on tandems that none of the makers have considered.... including the ever popular maker Panaracer. They suck and also don't want to go with an over heavy in weight rubber compound. I might splurge by doing a wheel rebuild, swap to 700C and ride on Tufo tubular / clincher's.

Opinions differ about what's good. I wanted the following:
V brakes
Indexed shifting
Freehub
Not a project, ready to ride today, maintainable with parts I can buy at retail today

What I found is a late (like early 2000's) Burley Samba that had all this, and a drop bar conversion with bar ends. I think between the steel frame and the fat tires, and the previous stoker's suspension seatpost any my stoker's tractor seat in the rear, it will be just fine for comfort. I don't expect it to be the least light or racy, and hopefully only stiff enough to deal with our mutual overweightness.

Classic and Vintage - Classic vs Vintage.
 

Firstly, Do you guys think the terms classic and vintage are synonyms - would it not be fair to suggest that all old bicycles are vintage but not all are classic ? Surely a classic is something special; perhaps with a frame made by a revered craftsman, and fitted with the best componentry. Bicycles that are vintage but not classic are simply those mass produced(often referred to here in England as grey porridge) - these factory produced bicycles are surely commodities.
Is there a difference in perception between what you have regard for in the USA and what we regard here in England ?
Secondly apropos cut off dates: looking at some posts it's brake cables hidden under bar tape, this is very arbitrary as cables have been hidden under bar tape from at least 1981, some time triallists here in the UK were drilling handlebars to conceal a front brake cable in the 1970s.
John.
N.B here's six English builders held in the highest esteem here in the UK: Peter Cobb, Ron Cooper, Bill Hurlow, Bill Philbrook, Chas Roberts(Snr & Jnr)...only Chas Roberts Jnr still with us but now on sabbatical(shop closed).

Yes, vintage and classic are different things. They may overlap, but often vintage just means old. Classic means special. If I cared enough I could draw a Venn diagram of overlapping circles.

A bicycle is considered a Classic in the USA when it is sorta old and not functional but is listed on Craig's List for more $ than it sold for when new. :twitchy:
A bicycle is considered Vintage in the USA when it is really old, not functional and encrusted in rust but is listed on Craig's List for 2X-10X $ than it sold for when new. :eek:

-Bandera

Venn diagrams, yes an Englishman (John Venn) invented those too!
As if you cared.
John.

It depends.

A bicycle is considered Rare in the USA when it was originally sold by a department store as a low end piece-O-crap and listed on Craigslist by a toothless huckster for the price of a nice used Hyundai (of which identical bikes were smelted down to build). Truly "Rare" bikes will be top listed daily for a minimum of two years for our viewing pleasure. :cry:

Definitely had to LOL for this response!!!!!