Details! Please and thanks.

Never knew this thread would have such great participation. What I love about the forums: I never stop learning! But, to conclude my journey with this question, score one for the LBS. 45 minute drive to Aaron's and 30 minutes in the shop, for the spreading and aligning/straightening, and I was good to go for a super reasonable charge. For me, every cent was worth the piece of mind. Thanks to all who weighed in. A lot to think about.

Well of course it doesn't you HAVE to use the dropout alignment tools and a frame alignment tool after that. Come on! I've always wanted to compare the Campy dropout tools to the Park. I've never had the Campy ones in my hands.

Using the right tools is important. Bending a steel frame introduces subtle handling variances. Making subsequent bends to get things aligned and straight is not the same as having unbent/untorqued seatstays/chainstays. Also when you spread the dropouts you marginally shorten the wheelbase of the bike. Things do change, and while 99% of the cyclists will tell you the bike handles exactly the same, the riding characteristics of the bike did change.

No you are exactly wrong, the dedicated frame spreader tool distributes the spreading force across both chain stays. It is the right tool to use.

The reason shops buy the FFS-2 tool is because they can use that tool on forks and other tubes. It isn't a dedicated single job (cold setting) tool. Don't be impressed with Park tools. Being the only game in town doesn't exactly make them the best. Well it does, but it doesn't mean anything. The Quality of most Park tools is very poor. I, you, we all buy them because in the US we only have lower price point tools to choose from and house brands.

I'm attaching an image of the FFS-2 so you can see why this is the wrong tool to use. You only do one side at a time with the FFS-2 and the spreading force isn't concentrated as a "spread" in a controlled plane, or distributed between BOTH chain stays. If its a good bike, find a shop that has the RIGHT tools. Not just a tool that kind of does that and some other stuff. I'd use the FFS-2 to bend a bent fork, but NEVER would I use that to cold set a frame. It is just the wrong tool, doing exactly what you got backwards: You have no way to control what is being set. There is no controlled plane of the spreading force (really with the FFS-2 its a free vector "pulling" force). With the FFS-2 you aren't really controlling exactly where the bend is taking place (it happens between the two clamps) whereas with the dedicated tool you choose where to exactly apply the spreading force. The FFS-2 is always the wrong tool for that job. Its like a Swiss Army Knife. Like I said most LBS are staffed by hacks and don't have the right tools.

Click on the image below. Its a one-sided train wreck.

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=468530

...thank you for confirming my initial impression. :)

...look, I'm not gonna go on and on about this, and I already feel apologetic to the OP, who was just asking us for a reference to get some one to do it. But you are tha guy I was warning him about, when I said it's not hard to find someone to do this wrong. If you refuse to believe me (and some others here), grab yourself a couple of frames yourself, and look at the chain stays.

They are rarely symmetric any more, and the one on the drive side is very likely dimpled for chainwheel clearance. Because of this, and some other subtle variations in terms of the way they fit into and are brazed to the BB shell (if that is how they are attached to it) they don't both flex and bend equally away from the centerline of the bicycle plane.

You're trying to get the drops to be equidistant from that plane, so that you can drop in your perfectly trued and dished wheel, thus allowing your tyre and rim (your contact point between you as a frame and rider) to run along that ideal plane. Clamping the BB in a vise with soft jaws (aluminum angel works fine for this) allows you to bend first one triangle the necessary increment wider, and youi can keep the thing set up with a reference string to measure the distance to the seat tube for the entire operation, making it a lot easier to measure and control the spread. You then proceed to the other triangle, using something (even your hands work for a small spread like this one if the frame tubing is not too resistant) to bend it out the correct 2mm (in this particular case, if the frame is already centered, you want to go 2mm on each side).

Once again, and for the last time I think, if you just spread the stays against one another, your resulting spread is very likely to go more in one direction than the other, and the results in that case will be a wheel that is poorly centered...........sometimes you notice it in riding, but it's possible you will not. These are bicycles, an often have minor imperfections in alignment anyway.


"Distributing your spread along both stays", which you seem to be stuck on, assumes that they are miraculously identical in how they spread, and practical experience will demonstrate to you other wise if you do 8 or 10 of them. Good luck and godspeed. you have some very strange ideas about what a steel bike frame is and how it works, and you seem utterly convinced of your own imaginary principles of alignment.


Apologies to the OP. But maybe it's good that you see just how much misunderstanding exists in bicycle universe about what is, in principle, a pretty simple operation. :)

...I have access to both, and the Park handles are a little more comfortable, but almost any of them work pretty well.

Wright Brothers Cycle Works and JRA Bike Shop are excellent. They are both north of the ship canal.
The aforementioned Recycled Cycles often has a wait for service, but are very good as well. Because these three are so good, I haven't had a need to try any others.

You seem to understand the problem, but your solution is to beat on a circuit board with stick.

...I'm pretty much untrollable. It's been real, it's been fun...........:)

I have both. The Campagnolo "H" tools are nice, but they only work with 100/120/126mm spacing. The Park tools are adjustable over a wide range of dropout spacings.

You gotta be joking, right?

In this image, the tool can be placed anywhere you want to place it. That's great. You get to chose where the pushing or pulling forces are APPLIED. That's not the same as controlling where the bending OCCURS. And again, what on leads you to believe that tool can bend both stays equal amounts? It's current design cannot control that.

One sided train wreck?

Doing one side at a time is the ONLY way that makes sense.




http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment...p;d=1438420881

Actually that's exactly wrong. The wrong tool for the job Park tool exerts a uncontrolled force. A proper frame spreader exerts the pressure on the chain stays exactly in the plane. With the Park tool the "mechanic" can pull vertically up not just out and out creating weird subtle issues. This is all very marginal mind you. However, you don't want to be yanking and pulling on the seat stays "freeform." It needs to be a controlled directed spread. If you put your fingertips together that approximates chain stays. When you spread the chain stays, incrementally you shorten the wheelbase of the bike. You want to make changes in two dimensions, not three. With the Park tool you aren't just exerting forces laterally to spread the chain stays. Its a very poor tool for the job and very easy to end up incrementally and marginally raise a chain stay while trying to spread it. Is this a significant movement, no, but the Park tool doesn't isolate the spreading force in a two dimensional plane. It pulls on the chain stay in the direction the mechanic pulls on the lever. In the end the Park tool like the vise train wreck will introduce more "error" to the frame than doing it with the RIGHT tools. Yes, you can then bend the dropouts with your alignment tools to compensate, but incrementally you end up asymmetric bends, and marginal vertical variance with the dropouts.

Use the right tool for the job, or don't do it. Whether Park sells that tool is NOT a referendum on whether it is the right tool for the job.

Your explanations make no sense and you refuse to answer the question about the pictured tool.

How does one bend a chain stay "Up"? Does the triangle magically shrink or does the seat stay compress?

Nonsense!

.
...can one of the moderators please move this thread to Politics and Religion ? We are now arguing in the area of faith and belief systems. :)

Two sided train wreck. :D :trainwreck:

You're right, you can't do that on an aluminum frame. You shouldn't ever cold set an aluminum frame. I'm assuming the OP has a steel frame, so let's start from there.

The West Coast Bianchi Repair guy does it clamping the BB shell in a vice. I know because he taught me how.

Every frame builder with a flat table clamps the BB shell and cold sets the frame from there, except for the few advocates of witch wanding. Google "bicycle frame alignment table". What's the difference between what this guy is doing and clamping a frame by the BB in a vice?

http://www.ruttpix.com/photos/526335859_MG2zu-L.jpg

Stick with aluminum, you seem to know something about those frames. The idea of you giving advice on steel frames gives me the chills.

Great!

Were you there while they did it? Since there's been some, er, controversy about the right way to do this, how did it go down?

BTW, I'm of the "more than one way to skin a cat" crowd.

Excellent point. On the other hand, I picked up a set of quality wheels super cheap - problem was they were 135 spacing, needed 130. No problem, just used a hack saw and grinder to remove 5mm, used the old trick of backing down the threaded bits so when removed, they cleaned out the threads. Rebuilt and respaced the hub, and redished the wheel, presto, 130mm spacing.

Yes, controversy is/was interesting. So yes, I did watch part of the process (wandered the shop looking at other vintage bits otherwise), and so I can't comment on exact details of everything. But the basics-- to weigh in on all the processes listed above-- was that they put in a set of "dummy" BB cups to protect the shell, and then clamped it there in a vice to hold it. Process started with aligning the Dropouts and the frame, and then slowly spread the DO, rechecking alignment several times in the process. Pretty uneventful, but like I said, was peace of mind to have someone else do it-- even if perspectives vary on if it was the right way or not, and for that matter, if it should have been done or not. The thought of me going at it with 2x4s literally gives me chills-- maybe that says something about my own confidence in my abilities!

[MENTION=348979]mnmkpedals[/MENTION] - Good thing you didn't have a bent fork! I tackled one yesterday to get it back into shape with a 2x4. yes there is a fork in the picture. You many need a magnifying glass (do they still make those?) to see it.
[IMG]https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5334/...ddc90c65_b.jpgP1030007, on Flickr[/IMG]

Before:

[IMG]https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8866/...1182a638_b.jpgWP_20150430_008 , on Flickr[/IMG]

Ones step prior to final adjustment:
[IMG]https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8809/...93d5cfcc_b.jpgP1020998, on Flickr[/IMG]

So, after they clamped the frame, what did they do/use to spread the stays apart? And, did they do one side at a time?

There are a lot of people who wouldn't try this-even some shops. My reply would be-what have you got to lose? There are a few things to check, one is if the steerer is bent, you're out of luck bending it back, as far as I can tell. Also one should check to make sure the fork crown-fork interface and steerer-fork crown is solid-no cracks or voids. The few forks I've seen that looked salvagable were just fine, and were candidates to be bent back. Then, of course, there's the frame itself. From my shop days I seem to remember its 50-50 if the frame is damaged as well. We always just replaced the fork if the frame was still ok, even if I thought we could save the fork by bending it back-liability issues.

I'd be scared of ovalizing the steerer while bending. Just thinking about it, if I didn't have a fork clamp I'd get a 4X4 and drill it through lengthwise with a 1" forstner bit (or whatever steerer diameter you have), then cut it in half so i could clamp the steerer evenly all around.

Good work!

Yep, pretty much the way I do it-except I never thought to put a set of dummy cups in to protect the shell. I just dope slapped myself for not thinking of doing this before.

I find I'm never too old or experienced to learn something new, one of the reasons I hang out here.

Yup, did all that. The first thing checked was the steerer for a bend, none. Check the fork for fractures as well as the interfaces. Will know more when it is stripped. This fork was purchased separately from the frame as the frame was toast ( I didn't see it).

So far so good. You might have noticed that this a Trek 700 series fork with the "sword" crown. I was lucky to find it (ebay) with the seller in the same city I worked in and, and it came off a frame the same size as mine so the steerer length is correct too. $25 was a reasonable price for this experiment, especially if the fork ends up undamaged with the exception of a little work hardening!

From your earlier posts I figgered you knew what you were doing, just wanted to get it out in writing in case others want to try the same thing.

Say, I saw your BF "save" post, its not on your list of "My bikes". Do you still have it? I have a 96 NWT with 3X7 Sachs, still using it from time to time. To keep slightly on topic, a few years ago the hinge pin seized-didn't know you're supposed to remove and service it every 1-2 years!