Seattle Area Shop for Cold Setting frame/dropouts?
 

Sorry for the semi-regional question, but I thought with the nature of the question that I'd have more luck here, than in the PNW forum.

I'm still semi new to the region and immediately near where I live, there are no vintage friendly shops. I'm not too far from Seattle and could pop there for some work, but looking for a recommendation for a good shop to cold set a frame from 126 to 130. I've never waded into this territory and want to make sure to have it done right. thanks!

4mm? that doesn't sound like much of a job.

if you're near georgetown, i'd maybe call cyclefab.

Cold setting isn't something super technical. Essentially they just yank the dropouts out a bit, then use a Frame/Fork Alignment tool to make sure the dropouts are parallel after yanking. If they aren't they use the Alignment tool to kind of bend things around until its as close as they can get. I guarantee you that any shop that tells you they have experience doing this does NOT have the right tools. The correct and appropriate tool uses to be known as a frame spreader. Like the Hozan C-451. People don't realize how unqualified the average LBS is at working on bicycles. Essentially most are staffed by young kid "mechanics" that know less about bicycles that most of us here on the forum. After the shop tells you they have the right tools, have them show you the tool. It should look something like this:

http://www.hozan.co.jp/cycle_e/catalog/C451.html

Or a Park Frame & Fork Straightener if they don't have the correct chain stay tool:
http://www.parktool.com/product/fram...ightener-FFS-2

There should absolutely be a specific tool that they will use, and not just some homemade tool like and axle with some washers:

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=468369


If you don't mind my asking, why bother? You can easily slip a 130mm hub into a 126mm bike. For crying out loud we Cannondale cyclists do it constantly, and we can't spread anything or the bikes would crack. It takes a second longer when inserting or removing the hub, as you have to gently pull the rear stays apart.

However, the much more elegant solution is to take whatever 130mm hub you want to use, I assume a cassette free hub and actually look at the thing. I've posted this before, and most people don't know this trick, but looking at the Ultegra 6500 Hub here next to my computer there is a spacer on each side of the hub. In between the outer locknut and the cone. You remove the spacer on each side and if you don't have a hub that measures 126mm its imperceptibly close. You do NOT need those spacers. Take them out and its a 126mm hub. Look at the front hub of any subset. Its outer locknut up against the cone on the Ultegra 6500 matching front hub. Your local bike shop will never tell you this trick because they want to sell you a new hub. But its common knowledge.

I'd make the hub you want to use 126mm if you can, before I'd start bending my frame on purpose, but that's just me. Besides if you want to use a freewheel you can't get a better hub than a Mavic or a Phil Wood. The Mavic has a slightly smaller axle where it necks down through the bearing. However, most people don't know that Mavic axles have 15mm axles that neck down to 12mm at the bearings. For the record Phil Wood axles are 15mm which is why they are so great for touring and tandems. You'll never have a problem breaking an axle on a Phil Wood using a freewheel. I'm heavier than most tandem teams and my Phil Wood hubs have never complained. Mavic hubs are absolutely the equivalent of anything ever made. Sealed bearings, spin forever. You can easily find Mavic 126mm rear hubs and throw a new IRD Classica freewheel on it. You can't find a higher quality AND better shifting freewheel, its never been made. IRD had nightmare problems with previous generation freewheels with the pawls failing essentially immediately. Avoid anything previous gen, and ensure its a Classica.

If you don't like just taking a sec to finagle a 130mm hub into your dropouts, and you don't want to remove the spacers from your hub or it doesn't have any then for the price of paying a teenager to spread your dropouts you can buy the actual tool yourself:

IceToolz E263 can be had for $65 + $5 shipping on Amazon.

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=468377

You're welcome.

Its not a shop quality tool, but if you go slow you can have the pride of doing it yourself. Or you could ruin your frame set, if you really didn't know what you were doing and buggered it. Using frame tools on a bike frame is use at your own risk. Spreading the chain stays is actually the simplest and safest as long as its steel. When you get into the weird and impossible to find tools for straightening head tubes or just trying to fix a seat stay or fork, bad things can happen instantaneously.

Sheldon's method works perfectly. It requires no specialized tools and no specialized skills.

Thanks for this. Great thoughts. I was actually wondering about that idea, and will peak at the hub in a bit. Question: Is it possible to just remove ONE of the spacers if that gives me the clearance? (Sorry, "Dish" is still one of those concepts I am learning about and not sure what messes with what.). I feel like from what I recall, I need the spacer on the cassette side to have clearance for the smallest cog with the frame.

+1, don't waste your money having a shop do it.

mtnbke, not sure how your DO alignment tool would work?
http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment...418988&thumb=1

If you cut the axle in 1/2 it would work. Bolt the two ends on to the Do's and bend the DO's so the the two ends of the axle meet.

I'm cheap and don't want to kill and axle, I use 2 lag bolts 4 washers and nuts to achieve the same thing

Aarons bike repair is the best C&V resource in Seattle, often recommended by other bike shops across the country, including Harris cycle, as an expert in IGH. Chances are they will have those impossible to find odds and ends in stock, and has has a cotter press and other C&V tools that most other shops don't have anymore.

Aaron's Bicycle Repair, Inc.


Recycled cycles is another good resource with inexpensive used parts, the Boat St. being the better of the two. My only negitive about them is a mechanic at the Freemont shop told me "cottered cranks are inherently flawed and unsafe, so we always scrap them", yet found a really nice Solida cottered crankset at their Boat St. shop??

Their C&V collection of bikes hanging from the ceiling is amazing.

Recycled Cycles

Angle lake cycles can be another good C&V resource, but be forewarned, they have been in business for over 50 years and have never thrown a thing out, its virtually impossible to walk through the shop for the piles of bike parts.

http://www.anglelakecycle.com/

...I'm honestly surprised that a guy who is as detail oriented as you would say this. I long ago came up with something that gives me more fine control on both centering and measuring the spread as the operation progresses.

The problem with removing the 4mm spacer from an 8+ speed hub is that the spoke tensions become really unbalanced if you recenter the rim. Shimano, et al, don't just install those 4mm spacers to waste money. :rolleyes:


Just squeeze those 130mm wheels in there and everything will be fine. :thumb:

...I think he's describing a spreader, not an alignment tool. Which you also need to do the job correctly.

...if your reason for the respace is to go with the greater cog capacity of the 130 mm hub, I'd be careful pulling spacers. As you have surmised already, you can run into problems with interference between the chain/cog and your stay. We do this job for people at the co-op here, and it's relatively straightforward, but there is a learning curve if you want to do it yourself.

I set the frame in in a large bench vise (use soft jaws), clamped on the BB face flats, set up with a reference measurement string that goes from one dropout to the other up and around the head tube. You maintain centering by measuring with a vernier caliper the distance on each side from string to seat tube using the depth rod on it...if you just grab and spread they often spread unevenly, and an older frame that's seen use is often off anyway. Final step is to realign the drops parallel. Good luck....there are a lot of guys who will do this wrong for you.:)

Look at the Sheldon Brown link for a visual, but the 2X4 on the ground thing will drive you nuts, because it's hard to control.

Another issue with pulling spacers is that your axle might protrude too far into the dropout, rendering your quick release skewer ineffective (and resulting in your axle slipping under load).

I haven't had a problem controlling the spread using a 2X4 and I use my foot. The only time I had a problem was when I tried the threaded rod method on a mixte, but I was able to straighten out the frame using Sheldon's instructions. I don't use a string as he recommends. I use a straightedge and digital calipers. I have a crude tool I made from a couple of axles for dropout alignment.

If you're not comfortable with Sheldon's method, don't use it.

Sheldon was in my mind wrong about a lot of things. Olmos, fixies, and his manner of using the wrong "tools" for the job. Do it right or don't do it, on my mind.

Thanks for the reference to Angle Lake. Looks like a place I would really enjoy poking around!

+1 on recycled for parts. I have only had email exchanges with Aaron, but he does seem to be knowledgable. I think both of those places could do it, it just depends on how exacting you want to be. The repair shop affiliated with Davidson framebuilding in Fremont would probably be willing to do such a task and do it super exacting if that is what you are after. They have access to the framebuilding tools.

Confession time.

Sheldon's method uses a 2x4 and a chair/bench. Too complicated for this simpleton. I take the frame into the house when the wife is gone, lay it on the carpet, step on the DO and BB and pull up, turn it over and to the same. I use a straight edge and calipers to measure the movement. If you go too far, repeat the process but squeeze the stays. When your done just align the DO's and you're finished.

One note of caution, I always clamp the brake bridge to take stress of the joint.

I know of several frame builders that just clamp a raw frame in a brass faced vice, grab the fork ends, and spread, then measure. You don't need any fancy tools to do the spreading, but you should have an accurate way to check the dropouts to make sure they're centered. The string trick isn't very accurate, IMO, or at least I haven't had good success with it, can't get better than 2-3mm accurate myself. A Park Frame Alignment Gauge is what I use. For perfectionists, a flat table is the gold standard.

The point is you don't need a special tool to do the spreading. As long as you have a way to check for center and measure the dropout distance, you're good. The hub you plan on using is perfectly good if you don't have a set of calipers. Start with just a little bit of force, and check center and distance. You'll have to spread on both sides, typically. If you have indents for chainrings on the drive side, this bends a LOT easier, so keep that in mind.

DIY dropout center tools

DIY frame alignment gauge

The first time I did it was with St. Sheldon's method. I used a DIY frame alignment gauge, but I did have a set of dropout alignment tools.

I also have one of those fancy frame spreaders. Used it once, wasn't impressed. It was easier to do by hand with the BB clamped in a vice. If anyone wants to purchase it from me, PM.

BTW, put a piece of copper, brass, or aluminum between the BB shell faces and the vice, or you'll ding up the face of the BB. With most sealed bearing BB's, it won't make a functional difference, but it scratches up the face and doesn't look very nice. With a vintage, non-sealed BB, there's a good chance the cups won't be parallel anymore.

Even simpler! So you just use a long straight edge on the head and seat tube back to the dropout, and measure the gap, repeat on the other side, and iterate the process until you get the spread and the gaps match? Must be longer than a yardstick, right?

Just be sure to wear closed toe shoes, and no children. :p I actually saw a couple step in the door, look around, shake their head's, and leave. If you have good balance, and stay on the trails, it can be an interesting place, and they do have a lot of "obsolete" stuff for C&V folks.

The idea of putting the faces of the BB shell in a vise gave me chills. Do NOT listen to that advice. You want to spread the chain stays apart, not dynamically bend the entire frame. The entire point of doing it right with a chain stay spreader is you get to choose and isolate where you are putting pressure on the tube set. By clamping at the BB you're risking popping a lug (if its a lugged steel bike) and you have no control over the "where" of the bending forces are applied. With butted tubing you want to introduce the least amount of force necessary to spread the chain stays, not the chains stays AND seat stays if that makes sense. Effectively you really end up doing both, but by focusing "where" the spreading force is applied it can be done right with the least amount of change to the frame. You don't want to over bend then correct. You can get the frame realigned when you do that, but it changes the way the frame rides introducing unbalanced spring rate to the stays.

You absolutely do NOT want to just remove a 4mm spacer from just one side of a hub. Dish is critically important for building strong wheels that "stands." You really want even tension from the drive side to the non-drive side, but with the arbitrary rear dropout spacing we use and with the demands of more cogs the reality is that often the flange on the drive side of the hub is closer to rim/frame center than the non-drive side. Essentially the non-drive side has better "bracing" in terms of the angle. Getting a dish less wheel is important enough that on Santana tandems they use 160mm rear dropout spacing. With 10/11 speeds that creates chainline issues, but you compromise to have a properly balanced tension wheel. Tandems have to carry twice the weight with the same rim and less than twice the spokes, so this matters.

The right way to convert a hub to 126mm is to balance the spacers to keep the wheel dish the same. If you take a 4mm spacer out on the drive side, you need to take a 4mm spacer out on the non-drive side, or you change the dish. The problem becomes if you remove enough spread from spacers that you'll have problems with the chain/cogs and the chain stay interference. Also a 130mm axle can keep the dropouts from properly tightening with the skewer, on a 126mm bike. Check that the axle length of the hub doesn't keep the skewer from properly tightening.

Again, you can fit a 130mm hub into a 126mm bike without doing anything. It just makes getting the wheel in and out a bit trickier, ten more seconds at the most. Better than bending a frame in my book.

With the simplest of tools (some string, a tape measure and a heavy stick of wood), it is not difficult to understand the theory and the practice of setting your own drop spacing, and ensuring the stays are centered to the frame's center line. Have a look at How To String A Frame, before you head to the shop. Your confidence level might take a wee jump. That said...

http://www.mytenspeeds.com/My_TenSpe...k_String_7.jpg

Go slowly. Don't over bend, if you can avoid doing so. Measure several times, before each bend attempt - then bend...

http://www.mytenspeeds.com/My_TenSpe...rk_Board_7.jpg

It does not hurt to put a cloth cushion between the two by four and the frame. Think before you do and you will, likely, do just fine.

Hope this is helpful in elevating understanding, if not confidence.

There's nothing wrong with putting the BB shell in a vise provided you have enough common sense to avoid crushing it. If you do lack that amount of common sense, you should never allow yourself to come closer than 5 feet from your bike anytime you have any tool in your hand.
Also, heed the advice to place soft metal between the jaws and the shell. I use short pieces of aluminum angle iron.

...I'm gonna go with you don't know what you're talkin' 'bout. #justguessin '

While a spreader is a swell tool to have, simply inserting it between your chainstays and pushing those babies out against one another until you've gone far enough past the elastic limits to get them to stay at 130mm presumes that they will both spread evenly away from the centerline, which almost never is the case in real life.

Speaking of real life, how many of these have you done? Because I really have done quite a few at this point, and I don't give advice here unless I have some practical experience on using it successfully. That stuff about dynamically bending the entire frame really misses the point of what i so patiently and carefully explained, amigo. :)

Guarantee? I live in small town and all 4 bike shops near me have these tools. The Park versions.

They have these too, hanging right on the wall in plain view.

I'll add that I use long bolts, nuts and washers to align my own dropouts and the result is a wheel that falls right into place, is aligned, and doesn't misbehave when I tighten things up. Straight can be measured, so whether you arrive there with Pro Tools or home made tools, it makes no difference IMO.



^ I would not use that tool. You have no way to control which side is being set. You could accidentally make your entire change by only moving one side.

Sheldon's 2x4 method works well.

Do both side flex the same amount? I'd wager no.