When did steel bikes peak?
08-05-15, 05:18 PM
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You could make a pretty good argument for 1972-74. Not about the bikes themselves, but about people wanting them.
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08-05-15, 06:04 PM
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Looking at the bikes at NAHBS.... they get better every year. Therefore, we have not peaked yet!
They peaked in popularity probably sometime during the bike boom.
Performance? Big Mig was the last to win the Tour on a tig welded steel Pinarello.
They peaked in popularity probably sometime during the bike boom.
Performance? Big Mig was the last to win the Tour on a tig welded steel Pinarello.
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08-05-15, 07:23 PM
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And the Rodriguez Outlaw is a very interesting steel bike, with SRAM Red you're looking at a 13.5 pound ready to ride steel bike though it might bankrupt some of you! See: The lightest custom racing bicycles | Lighter than carbon fiber | The Steel Rodriguez Outlaw
08-05-15, 08:28 PM
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I remember seeing either an ad or a review for a Specialized Allez around 1992-3 that was already beating the "steel is real" drum. In the same timeframe, the bike ads in the mags seemed to be a mix of steel, aluminum, ti, and crabon.
as far as mass adoption, I see the progression as steel>ti>aluminum>crabon, although mass adopt of Ti probably only occurred in a sub-population of dentists.
To answer the op, 1988.
as far as mass adoption, I see the progression as steel>ti>aluminum>crabon, although mass adopt of Ti probably only occurred in a sub-population of dentists.
To answer the op, 1988.
08-05-15, 08:35 PM
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Waterford (disclosure: I have foreign-market business ties with Waterford) builds for a whole bunch of smaller brands. Mike Kone's Boulder Bicycles, Ben's Cycle's Milwaukee Bicycle Company, Twin Six, Georgena Terry, Shinola, and I'm sure there are more. There's also Zen Bicycle Fabrication in Portland, with a business model based on small runs of contract frames. I don't know who they're building for. Jeff Lyon sells his basic, made-to-order fillet-brazed L'avecaise frame/fork for about $1,400. Elephant is selling their production New Field Explorer frame/fork for $1,285. That's a recent mini-trend, smaller custom builders like Elephant and Wraith selling limited runs of production frames at lower-than-custom prices. They're often niche-y frames, but with enough pent-up interest to sell out the production runs.
Getting closer to Gunnar prices, Rob Perk's Ocean Air Cycles Rambler is US-made, at $1,800. Black Mountain Cycles' MUSA frames are $1,700.
So there's a bunch of stuff out there, but there's nobody I know of, other than Gunnar, with a complete US-built product line that's steel-only. More like a bunch o' blokes with one or two frames each. Maybe Ben's/Milwaukee is closest at this point, since I think they're up to at least 3 or 4 different models now?
Getting closer to Gunnar prices, Rob Perk's Ocean Air Cycles Rambler is US-made, at $1,800. Black Mountain Cycles' MUSA frames are $1,700.
So there's a bunch of stuff out there, but there's nobody I know of, other than Gunnar, with a complete US-built product line that's steel-only. More like a bunch o' blokes with one or two frames each. Maybe Ben's/Milwaukee is closest at this point, since I think they're up to at least 3 or 4 different models now?
08-05-15, 08:36 PM
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I really love the OS steel frames from the 90s...the columbus Nivachrome stuff. Paired with campy ergos...its a great blend of classic and modern.
In terms of aesthetics, hard to beat the 60s italians.
In terms of aesthetics, hard to beat the 60s italians.
Last edited by KonAaron Snake; 08-05-15 at 08:39 PM.
08-05-15, 09:05 PM
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08-05-15, 10:01 PM
#33
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I <think > my ultimate steel bike would be mid-late '80s Miyata splined triple-butted Cr-Mo. Either in 'Road' or 'Touring' geometries.
Components would be the 'middlin-best' of the era, say SunTour Cyclone (GT)
So with those restrictions, a Miyata 712/912 or 610/1000 or equivalent would be pretty darned close.
Unfortunately (?) I've had to 'settle' with an '84 Univega Viva Sport and an '83 Gran Tourismo which, according to Miyata, pretty much coincide with a '84 710 and 610. Whereas the frame tubing is DB vs TB, the rest is close enough.
If you want to quibble about ounces, let's just say that I'M carrying more extra ounces than the gains(?) of either of the hypothetical builds would shave,...
Components would be the 'middlin-best' of the era, say SunTour Cyclone (GT)
So with those restrictions, a Miyata 712/912 or 610/1000 or equivalent would be pretty darned close.
Unfortunately (?) I've had to 'settle' with an '84 Univega Viva Sport and an '83 Gran Tourismo which, according to Miyata, pretty much coincide with a '84 710 and 610. Whereas the frame tubing is DB vs TB, the rest is close enough.
If you want to quibble about ounces, let's just say that I'M carrying more extra ounces than the gains(?) of either of the hypothetical builds would shave,...
08-05-15, 10:18 PM
#34
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You're not likely to see it return for the 800-1200 market because:
1) the skilled trades are dying off in the US. There's great competition for the remaining skilled labor.
2) bicycle manufacturing is a low margin business (especially against imports)
3) complying with ever increasing environmental and other regulations (ACA, for example) limits the size of startup companies...expansion beyond a certain point opens up a whole new order of magnitude of business expenses but small companies can't generate the volume needed beyond the bespoke market (i.e Waterford/Gunnar).
4) Volume manufacturing in the USA has ceased due to market forces. Cannondale closed their PA plant, Trek long ago left Waterloo, Raliegh left Washington, and Schwinn's last hurrah at Greenville has been gone for over 20 years. It'd be hard to get investors convinced that it's viable to start where other marketable names have failed.
5) Wraith can't be turning much of a profit at the prices they're charging and they aren't able to make the volume to be a stocking company (pre-orders and waves etc point to this).
Make me a solid business case and not just a wish. I'm listening. I'm totally for spending my American Dollars and employing Americans, but most folks start getting really antsy when the price hits four figures....
B
1) the skilled trades are dying off in the US. There's great competition for the remaining skilled labor.
2) bicycle manufacturing is a low margin business (especially against imports)
3) complying with ever increasing environmental and other regulations (ACA, for example) limits the size of startup companies...expansion beyond a certain point opens up a whole new order of magnitude of business expenses but small companies can't generate the volume needed beyond the bespoke market (i.e Waterford/Gunnar).
4) Volume manufacturing in the USA has ceased due to market forces. Cannondale closed their PA plant, Trek long ago left Waterloo, Raliegh left Washington, and Schwinn's last hurrah at Greenville has been gone for over 20 years. It'd be hard to get investors convinced that it's viable to start where other marketable names have failed.
5) Wraith can't be turning much of a profit at the prices they're charging and they aren't able to make the volume to be a stocking company (pre-orders and waves etc point to this).
Make me a solid business case and not just a wish. I'm listening. I'm totally for spending my American Dollars and employing Americans, but most folks start getting really antsy when the price hits four figures....
B
08-05-15, 10:19 PM
#35
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One aspect of steel bikes today is that today's builders are producing a wide variety of bicycles that meet different cyclist needs. In the 1980's the big manufacturers in the U.S. and Japan were producing a lot of really well made steel bikes in a single style/geometry: Sport Touring. The great builders built racing bicycles. I'm not blaming anyone, that's what the bike buying public wanted.
08-06-15, 05:01 AM
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Trek's VOLUME production long left Waterford to sweatshops and robotic welding in China. The question was posited around steel, and more specifically around the $800-1200 volume segment of the market. I'm sure that Trek makes carbon Madones, Fuels, and other top-end bikes in Wisconsin but 10,000 to 20,000 of 1.5 million annual worldwide sales still means at most 1 percent of their annual volume is made in the United States. Feel free to check my figures. A good source is Bicycle Retailer News.
Last edited by brandon98; 08-06-15 at 05:29 AM. Reason: Grammar
08-06-15, 05:42 AM
#38
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Quality/performance of steel bikes has not peaked yet. But as it continues to improve, the cost continues to ramp up higher and higher. Its gone from common material of construction, across all levels of bicycles, to specialized/custom production. So its priced out of my league.
Meanwhile, from a value standpoint, steel peaked in the late 1980s: think Ironman, Circuit, Prologue, etc.
Meanwhile, from a value standpoint, steel peaked in the late 1980s: think Ironman, Circuit, Prologue, etc.
08-06-15, 05:54 AM
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[QUOTE=wrk101; Meanwhile, from a value standpoint, steel peaked in the late 1980s: think Ironman, Circuit, Prologue, etc.[/QUOTE]
Concur. The last real hurrah for steel as an attempt for volume market were the OS steel bikes of the 1990s which are sweet riding and provide an excellent mix of weight, ride quality, and aesthetics. I have a Diamondback Master TIG in Tange OS and an 853 Peloton. Both are smooth riding, precise, good looking rocketships that you can spend all day on with joy instead of dread.
Concur. The last real hurrah for steel as an attempt for volume market were the OS steel bikes of the 1990s which are sweet riding and provide an excellent mix of weight, ride quality, and aesthetics. I have a Diamondback Master TIG in Tange OS and an 853 Peloton. Both are smooth riding, precise, good looking rocketships that you can spend all day on with joy instead of dread.
08-06-15, 06:20 AM
#41
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I <think > my ultimate steel bike would be mid-late '80s Miyata splined triple-butted Cr-Mo. Either in 'Road' or 'Touring' geometries.
Components would be the 'middlin-best' of the era, say SunTour Cyclone (GT)
So with those restrictions, a Miyata 712/912 or 610/1000 or equivalent would be pretty darned close.
Unfortunately (?) I've had to 'settle' with an '84 Univega Viva Sport and an '83 Gran Tourismo which, according to Miyata, pretty much coincide with a '84 710 and 610. Whereas the frame tubing is DB vs TB, the rest is close enough.
If you want to quibble about ounces, let's just say that I'M carrying more extra ounces than the gains(?) of either of the hypothetical builds would shave,...
Components would be the 'middlin-best' of the era, say SunTour Cyclone (GT)
So with those restrictions, a Miyata 712/912 or 610/1000 or equivalent would be pretty darned close.
Unfortunately (?) I've had to 'settle' with an '84 Univega Viva Sport and an '83 Gran Tourismo which, according to Miyata, pretty much coincide with a '84 710 and 610. Whereas the frame tubing is DB vs TB, the rest is close enough.
If you want to quibble about ounces, let's just say that I'M carrying more extra ounces than the gains(?) of either of the hypothetical builds would shave,...
I think that when Suntour hit the crest of their wave in the early to mid 80's that could be considered another "peak" in the cycling steel world, at the very least it was the peak of reliability in components, but not in sales because remember what I said earlier sales peaked in 73 and dropped off after that. So I don't think there is anyone peak you can look at unless you want to look at when was the prime time for steel bikes, in that matter the early to mid 80's would be it even though sales were down vintage bike frames were made well as were their components. But by the early to mid 80's artistic qualities of bikes were beginning to drop off, gone were the fancy lugs, gone were the chrome forks, stays, and lugs, and gone were the drillium components.
08-06-15, 06:31 AM
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Agree with your assessment of the Diamondback Tange OS frames. Very smooth, sure-footed rides.
08-06-15, 07:41 AM
#43
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USAZorro is probably correct that the question is largely unanswerable. With that said, the immediate Post-War period up until the early 1960s, for the most part at least, was a time when builders were putting out some excellent work and in volumes that would support someone who was trying to make a living building bicycles. One needs only to look at the list of classic builders in the UK to see just how vibrant that period was.
08-06-15, 08:04 AM
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08-06-15, 08:17 AM
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There were some peaks and valleys- You had great Reynolds 531 machines in 1970 but you also had evolution and supreme quality Columbus TSX in the late 80's and Reynolds 853 TIG's were extremely smooth and responsive rides in the early 2000/s.
No, very few keepers of the torch today can match the craftsmen/women of the past. $3,500.00 "Custom" builders today pale in comparison considering they have more technology at their disposal. We have lost artisans in this world of electronic gadgetry and CNC programming. They are still out there, but have to charge a lot for their skill set and are few.
I'd be interested to hear from TMar on how alloy contents changed over the years too.... I don't think the available materials are as good today (IMHO)
Last edited by bigwoo; 08-06-15 at 10:45 AM.
08-06-15, 08:46 AM
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Interesting stuff. I've really just gotten into steel bikes lately.
I've been looking at stuff like Ritchey, Gunnar, Wraith, Seven, Honey, Rodriquez, Jamis, Kona, Salsa, All-City, Surly, etc.
I'd like to be in the know for what to look out for on CL in case something cool comes up. I'm really digging my Reynolds 853 Jamis Eclipse that I nabbed off CL a couple of months back.
I've been looking at stuff like Ritchey, Gunnar, Wraith, Seven, Honey, Rodriquez, Jamis, Kona, Salsa, All-City, Surly, etc.
I'd like to be in the know for what to look out for on CL in case something cool comes up. I'm really digging my Reynolds 853 Jamis Eclipse that I nabbed off CL a couple of months back.
08-06-15, 09:53 AM
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08-06-15, 01:40 PM
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08-06-15, 01:46 PM
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Ahhh. When did he pick them?
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