Hello,

This is my first post, so please bear with me.

My father gave me what I always assumed was a wonderful sought-after Hetchins bicycle, which I dissembled and resprayed into a lovely dark purple (I know, I know... I shouldn't have resprayed the original coat!). Fast forward a couple of years, I'm now moving house and deciding whether or not to sell the frame. This is when I contacted a Hetchins specialist to confirm the model and year, who informed me that the previous owner (before my father... unless he is lying to me!) most probably stuck a Hetchins badge on a random frame. The blasphemy!

The serial number on the steering tube is 1147. I'm now trying to work out the manufacturer/model of the frame. Can anyone help?

More photos https://drive.google.com/folderview?...Uk&usp=sharing

Well, I am no Hetchins expert, but I agree it doesn't have the features I associate with that marque (ostentatiously fancy lugwork).

But whatever it is, it is a very nice English frame from the early 1950's or so. I trust you saw the serial number on the left rear dropout as well as the steerer tube.

If you haven't already done so, you might look at the "readers' bikes" section of www.classiclightweights.co.uk site
Readers' Bikes and the essay about the location of the serial number:
Frame identification by frame number

I am also not a Hetchins expert...but...it is a quite striking frameset! And...even though I really like original paint, the color is outstanding!

I've seen those head lugs before.....but can't remember what bike it was.
IIRC, it was not a Hetchins....

Thanks guys. I didn't actually spot the serial number on the drop out. I'll take a closer look at that when I get home after work, and dive into the Classic Light Weights website (@rhm - can you actually read it from the photo?). And agreed - it is a very nice frame. The respray isn't ideal as far as value is concerned, but at least it came out rather well. The lugs remain quite detailed, the build quality still feels very robust for its age (50s?) and I really like the profile. It's quite understated, which I like.

Below is what the kind folks at Hethchins.org had to say, which all makes sense. I'll send them the new serial number, just in case.

"I have consulted with the Hetchins Archivist, Len Ingram, on this one.
We are both of the opinion that what you have there is a genuine
Hetchins badge which has been attached to a non-Hetchins frame. The
following factors mitigate against its being a genuine Hetchins frame:


1. the lug pattern is unknown for any confirmed Hetchins.
2. the fork crown is unknown for any confirmed Hetchins.
3. Hetchins used exclusively round stays with no indents up to the
period of Mafac/Sachs-Huret components; your frame has indented chain
stays.
4. the serial number 1147 does not fit to any year of production.


In the absence of a bill of sale on Hetchins letterhead with Alf's
signature, we must conclude that whoever resprayed it was having a bit
of fun putting a Hetchins badge on it."

As you go about investigating the identity of your frame one piece of the puzzle to have is the number and spacing distances of the Hbadge holes.

That and the usual thread type, seat post diameter number markings.

Carefully remove the headbadge and sell for some build money.

The frame is a nice gift from your Father.

I believe those are Oscar Egg lugs.

Oscar Egg lugs

They were used on various bikes, so that might not help you find the correct maker, but they're pretty nice, so that's a good sign.

Theyre Oscar Egg lugs IIRC, used on Carltons among others.

The dropout serial makes me think its a Carlton, but thats a very uneducated guess.

I'd keep the headbadge and ride the heck out of the bike. Makes for a good story is anyone asks.

If selling, then it makes sense to sell the headbadge separately.

I have seen a few Hetchins. In fact I rode with somebody this last week who was on one.
I told him that is the first Hetchins I have seen on the road and not hanging on a wall.
The frame you have is not a Hetchins IMO.

Concur with Oscar Egg. Had a J.A. Holland that had those. I think the serial rules out it being a Holland.

I also have a Hetchins, and I don't recall seeing them use those lugs. Almost all used lugs made in house. Pretty sure that's a 50's, or possibly an early 60's frame made using stockpiled lugs.

I see the same serial number on both fork steerer and left dropout. That is a common pattern (used by Carlton and others) so while it may exclude some makes, it won't lead to a speedy identification. The same goes for the lugs, which are very nice but not very rare.
The lack of a derailleur hanger points to early fifties, I think.

The two serials match, so at least he knows the frame and fork are an original pair. I agree with a 50's date.

By the way, the components may also tell us something about the date, if they are original... so it might help to show us photos of those as well.

The rear dropouts are exactly like those on my 1960s frame that I believe is a Falcon (missing headbadge, but the head tube holes are an exact fit for Falcon headbadge). I think they were made by Cyclo. I can't see your front dropouts very well, but those look like what's on my frame too. I'm not saying your frame's a Falcon, just that the dropouts are definitely from that era. Cut from plate, thicker than what's on bike boom bikes (that people call "stamped" dropouts). They are stamped to offset the rear fender eyelets, but I think the basic process is to cut them. Nice frame -- who cares if it's a Hetchins . . . really? What size seatpost does it take? My Falcon is quite heavy, not double-butted tubing, but I really like it as a built-thing anyway.

The way the seat stay wraps around the seat tube screams Carlton to me.

I don't think that serial number fits Carlton. I think we need to look at smaller makers.

Thank you everyone. Here are some photos of what's left of the groupset (plus a couple of random bits) for anyone who is interested. I guess there's no guarantee this is what originally came with the frame, but it's what arrived when it was given to me.

I'm now convinced it's not a Hetchins. No huge loss, I still really like the frame. Money is fairly tight at the moment so I'll sit on it for a few days before deciding whether or not I can afford a new project! And I'll poke around a few more websites to see if the serial number can identify the frame. I'll update the thread if I confirm anything!

Mafac calipers
Mafac levers
Sachs-Huret rear derailleur
Huret front derailleur

tobydogy-

Mafac Top 63 brake calipers- rare! Clean them, polish and replace the junk pads with Kool Stop and you should have collectors drooling over these!

bertinjim- will do, thanks!

In pic #5 of the components - am I seeing "Sachs Huret" on the RD? If so, then that component is not 1950s/60s.

Sachs-Huret derailleurs

the expression, "dog's breakfast" comes to mind when looking at the assortment of parts there. Looks like parts were changed out at a time or two or three into the 70's. I searched through the ClassicRendezvous bicycle makers for the British Isles and France, and didn't find anything conclusive. Knowing the diameter on the seat post and the bottom bracket threading might help to put us on the right track (or take us off the wrong track) with our primitive sleuthing. Alternatively, one could appeal to Hilary Stone or Norris Lockley, and they may just happen to know what you have off the top of their head.

What I see is a:

post war frame (eyelets on the drop-outs)

but still early (oiler on the BB shell but not on the Headtube)

from a small builder ( low serial number)

of lesser notoriety then Hetchins, hence the badge.

So many builders during this period...who knows? But I'd ride it with badge in place, no problem. Matter fact, I'd even splurge on some decals, lug lining & double box lining if I had the cash.

Have fun, it's a nice looking frame

Maybe a Holdsworth

https://www.lfgss.com/conversations/158504/

Hi there,
I agree with sced. If you search Norman Kilgariff's catalogs and pics, frame 1147 is likely a Holdsworth Hurricane. Head lugs are similar to 1961 pics. By 1964 catalog shows Prugnat lugs for Hurricane model. According to a letter I have seen written by Kilgariff in assessing a frame, he describes the prior ongoing sequence of numbering being abandoned for the years 62-64, thus explaining the low 4 digit serial numbers during this time and considering this frame details placing 1147 in 62-63 time frame.
Doug

[QUOTE=tobydoby;18200392]Hello,

This is my first post, so please bear with me.

My father gave me what I always assumed was a wonderful sought-after Hetchins bicycle, which I dissembled and resprayed into a lovely dark purple (I know, I know... I shouldn't have resprayed the original coat!). Fast forward a couple of years, I'm now moving house and deciding whether or not to sell the frame. This is when I contacted a Hetchins specialist to confirm the model and year, who informed me that the previous owner (before my father... unless he is lying to me!) most probably stuck a Hetchins badge on a random frame. The blasphemy!

The serial number on the steering tube is 1147. I'm now trying to work out the manufacturer/model of the frame. Can anyone help?