mtnbke

I'm curious what experience people have with the Joe Derailleur, made by Prototype Machining in Denver, CO. I guess these debuted in 1995 and were produced until the end of the late 90s.

disreal gears lists the following:

207g, Maximum cog 32 teeth, Total capacity 33 teeth, Pulley centre to centre: 67mm, top normal.

Presumably these will cover the cog spacing of an 8-speed drivetrain, which should be about 35-37mm depending on the cassette and shifters.

Joe's derailleur
Joe's derailleurs

A Bicycling Guide review here (last image is actually readable and details their review of it):
MOMBAT:Joe's Components* History

This review of Paul's the Joe's and the Proshift wasn't exactly a ringing endorsement for the Joe's. However, I've been having a hard time justifying spending $1000 on a Paul, so I picked up a Joe's for much less. I have no idea what shifters to pair with it, or whether to use it on the 29er, 26" mountain bike, or the tandem or the singles. Maybe pair the Suntour Command shifters with it because I don't have any builds I want to use the sets of those I have for. Or maybe just use them with XT thumb shifters as I need to build up something to use the sets I have of those with. I don't think Paul or anyone else made any cool CNC aluminum shifters did they? Maybe something on Paul Thumbie mounts. I still haven't sourced some Mavic mountain bike shifters but I'd use those with a Mavic 845 rear derailleur, not this Joe's.

I don't have a clue what to do with it, but I'm curious what people think about this derailleur, and how it shifts relative to other derailleurs they've used. It sounds like they have adjustable spring tension, but very few people knew that or engaged through the headache to adjust it to fit their drivetrain.

The one I found has Shimano pulleys which I'll need to swap out for something CNC to be era correct.

Thoughts?

mtnbke

top506

I think you're overthinking. This has been done on a much more cost-effective basis.
Top

mtnbke

What has been done?

pastorbobnlnh 

I'm guessing @top506 is referring to mass produced, cost effective, solid performing RDs made by the likes of Shimano, Suntour, Campagnolo, SRAM, microShift, Sunrace, etc.

There's a reason why Joe's is no longer in existence and Paul no longer makes RDs. The reason is primarily that that their RDs cost a significant amount of money to make in the first place, therefore profit margins were very small. Second, they did not perform as well as less expensive RDs that were mass produced. And, third, any tiny amount of weight savings gained by CNC manufacturing was overshadowed by a high price and lack of exceptional performance. It was a perfect example of "three strikes and you are out!"

For these reasons, very few were made and sold, and eventually used or kept for 20+/- years. Therefore, few people can really discuss actual hands on experience using one. I've only ever seen pictures of a Paul RD. Never heard of anyone actually using theirs. This is the first time I've heard of or seen a Joe's RD.

Why not mount it and ride it a few hundred miles and let us know about your impressions? I'm curious!

mtnbke

Well then top506 is just being silly. If we all just wanted to ride budget limited rides that gave the best shifting performance it would be difficult to justify any non-Shimanoculture build. Heck what would be the point of any vintage Campy components when cheap slant-parallelogram Suntour derailleurs ALWAYS shifted better by any objective measure? How many cyclists really need the marginal performance gains of Italian Columbus SL bikes when most of us would be more economically be served on vintage Japanese Craigslist bikes that are cheap and a dime a dozen? There were very good Bridgestones, Miyatas, etc. but s Cinelli, Olmo, or Colnago they ain't.

My wife's new Libertas mixte is stupid light sand wicked fast, but the frame literally could not be rougher in the fit and finish. I mean it makes her Schwinn stovepipe look like a Rivendell. In cycling we aren't just looking to ride on bikes/forks that are defined by their utility, function, or value. Sometimes the fun is riding something because of the rarity or scarcity. Heck I'd love a Mavic Zap or Mektronic bike even though I know they'd ruin many a ride and don't efficiently represent cheap or even effective and trouble free shifting.

I don't know what to do with the Joe's derailleur. It's going to create a sinkhole build to get a matching front derailleur and bits. I don't like prices for Paul front derailleurs though the hubs are reasonble enough. I don't see any Joe's front if they exist. The build is going to take forever regardless of how it ultimately comes together. I'm thinking like my tout Mavic mountain bike headache this might become a "Made in the USA" build on a 22" clown wheel Klein mountain bike or a big/tall Klein unicorn road bike, if I ever find one. Regardless, I'm too fat now to trust myself to not damage a Klein if I bought one tomorrow and I'm as curious as you about how it actually does shift.

From what I've read so far the Joe's needs quality thread locking compound to keep the adjusting screws from just walking out on a ride. I'll tell you what PastorBob, you spring for the thread locking goop so I don't lose my vintage Joe's hardware and I'll ship you the derailleur. I won't have my build anywhere near complete anytime soon. You ride the snot out of it,and ship it back to me after you can give an objective but detailed long term field test. Game?

No stealing my funky wonky potentially terrible shifting derailleur though.

USAZorro

There's no harm whatsoever in giving a curiosity a road test. We do a lot of that here. Impracticality has a certain amount of charm that can be associated with it.

pastorbobnlnh 

Just to bump this thread, I started a new thread with mtbke's Joe's RD front and center. Just to keep it real with pictures, here are a few. More in the other thread.

uncle uncle

Just throwing my two cents in on the aspect of CNC detail parts, like those used in the Joe derailleur... depending on the number of units produced, it's more cost effective to CNC things than it is to forge them. Forgings require tools; expensive tools. Those tooling costs can be recouped on each part; more parts made means smaller tooling costs per part, and somewhere you would break even and then undercut the CNC costs (which includes tool run time, cutter bits, wasted material, etc). In the industry I work in, which is a low volume enterprise, CNC rules.

Wildwood 

Weren't there some CNC'd drivetrain components from Sampson (in Colorado)? Last I remember they were no longer being produced.

tiger1964 

Seems like it needs a fancy foreign name (Italian, French, Japanese, take your pick) to justify a high price.

Wildwood 

Joe's = a great American name - just like:
Joe's Bar & Grill
Jose's Cantina
etc.

Is the Pastor building the great all-American bicycle?

wesmamyke

Some of that Joe's stuff is worth as much as vintage Paul's stuff. Sell that thing and buy a whole groupo with the money.

pastorbobnlnh 

Just borrowing a piece of domestic bicycling history.

Even when the Continental was original it was equipped with French derailleurs, shifters, crankset, pedals and saddle. It was far from being the All American Bike!

Hope to take Joe for a little workout tomorrow. Ride report in 24!

pastorbobnlnh 

See the other thread for the compete blow, by blow. But here is proof of riding with Joe's RD.

mtnbke

Let's be careful. To fabricate needed custom parts or tooling, Computer Numeric Control machining or manual machine fabrication can not only be cost effective, nothing else may really make sense. However, in a production context CNC is never more cost effective. Of course there are transactional and entry costs to building and engineering molds, and getting a production process started. It can cost thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars to bring a product to the point of being ready for production, however at that point the marginal cost of production is very very low. You crank out stamped, forged, injected or what have you bits on the cheap. CNC is never a viable production option. It is just so insanely time intensive and ALWAYS the wrong approach for a production context. Sometimes you don't have a choice, needing a low volume run of a needed proprietary bit or part. That wouldn't justify the investment in pursuing a manufactured product, as you'd never approach your "break-even."

Its almost always not cost effective to try to produce CNC bits. The unit costs are just absurdly high compared to any other process. However, uncle uncle is right. No small machine shop was ever going to get to the volumes needed to justify forged alloy volume production, they couldn't ever justify the entry costs. Besides the very attraction of the CNC derailleur era was the CNC construction. Even if Paul's or Precision or whomever did invest lottery winnings in developing the relationships, molds, and tooling for forged or stamped derailleur components…why would anyone want a Paul's, Precision or what have you forged or stamped derailleur? At that point its then no different than a Shimano, Suntour, or Campagnolo offering. Its just about finish and details then. The whole point of the CNC derailleur was that it was actually a CNC derailleur. It was a statement of artisanal craftsmanship in a sea of Shimanoculture.

Anyone interested in the WHY sense of why CNC makes no sense to really produce anything, should read this.

This Derailleur Sells for $1,000 | BIKE Magazine

Very interesting piece on the CNC derailleur era, and the rise and fall of Paul's Component Engineering. For more context learn about Boone's story:

About Us : Custom Made Rings : Titanium Engagement Ring : Boone Titanium Rings

At one point Boone was making one-piece custom full CNC titanium cassettes, cool cranks and BBs, and other bits. Then the demand for kool custom bits just kind of dried up. Great companies like Boone, Hi-E, Bullseye, Paul's, and many others either closed shop or they almost closed shop. It shouldn't be lost on anyone that Boone's makes titanium wedding bands now…not bike parts. The problem with the high end cycling industry is that its always a very small pie, and growth is almost impossible for high zoot kit. Heck most professional UCI Div I European teams in the gran tour peloton aren't always riding on the "best" kit. There are only so many anesthesiologists, otolaryngologists, or personal injury attorneys to sell titanium cogs to. Lemond won a tour on Mavic SSC which used stamped heavy steel for the rear derailleur cage plates. The good stuff isn't always for the racers, its for the select few with the means and disposition to want to pay for that. A very small market that becomes saturated very very quickly.

There are always more people that will need to buy wedding bands. There are only so many people in the world that want to buy a high zoot CNC alloy derailleur. The fact that someone in this thread or the other thread PastorBob started suggested selling such a rare, scarce, and historic component to buy a "whole group" of whatever underscores the point. In a Classic and Vintage forum no less. What's an Ultegra complete group worth? I mean FULL group with seat post, stem, hubs, crank, shifters, everything? Not much. Not remarkable, not rare, and not special. Its dime a dozen kit that anyone with a couple of hundred bucks and a couple hours on eBay can put together ANY Shimano, SRAM, or Campagnolo group. However, there are some very special and scarce and rare components that while they may not operate as well as even an LX derailleur from the 8-speed era, that isn't the point. They are just "special." You don't see them everyday.

A Rivendell isn't really a better bike than just about any cheapo Craigslist peak Japanese low-yen high-dollar Miyata, Panasonic, Bridgestone, Centurion, Azuki, etc. However, the paint is drop dead gorgeous and Grant has crafted a brand around his narrative as much as the bike. Anyone who thinks a Rivendell is a "better" actual riding bicycle than the peak Japanese era of polish, production, and build quality is kidding themselves. Grant himself acknowledges that those days of finding the "value" that was available in Japanese golden era bits and frames is over, forever. Today you can get good kit from Taiwan or China but nothing like the era when you had peak Japanese tooling, forging, and as Grant puts it, little old ladies hand polishing components.

It doesn't matter that you can trade a rare cycling component or frame for a complete bike or group. Where is the fun in having some common ubiquitous bit or frame that everyone has. Most car collectors don't collect Chrysler K cars simply because "you can have a hundred of them for the price of a vintage Ferrari." You want the vintage Ferrari because…its a vintage freakin' Ferrari. Then when you get into Ferraris its not enough to have a 308/328. You want the Ferrari that will make your buddies at the Barrett-Jackson auctions green with envy. You want the cars that are uncommon, noteworthy and a prize in your collection. No one really collects coal, you want diamonds. With cars its sometimes performance, or coachwork, or rarity.

The 15 Most Expensive Ferraris Ever Built | Elite Traveler | Page 15

With bikes its not always about performance, look at the love affair with steel bikes for a multitude of great reasons that have nothing to do with actual performance. Sometimes, its about having something beautiful like a Rivendell or an authentic vintage "real" Rene Herse. Having a Carol Shelby Cobra replica isn't the same as actually having one. Just as having a Rene Herse label on a bike built in Boulder probably isn't the same as having a real one. Its a very nice bike, but it just isn't the same.

Sometimes its about how interesting something is. We have cyclists in this forum riding around on Viscount "death forks" because they like that it hasn't killed them yet. We have cyclists riding around on Vitus bikes with bonded aluminum. That would scare me to death. They love it. We have cyclists who don't always want the "best" kit, and best meaning just in terms of pure function. Heck, if that was true there would be no market for 9, 10, or 11 speeds as ALL are progressively more finicky and require constant barrel adjustment compared to the golden 8-speed era. Tolerances are just too tight.

I think not everyone is a car collector. Some people buy a Kia, and would never consider spending nearly $100k for a new Masaratti Quattroporte. Some people would think spending $40k-$60k for a USED Quattroporte to be an insane notion when you could buy a "NEW" car for much less. I like living in a world where Quattroporte's exist. I don't think I'd have liked living in the Communist USSR planned economy where you waited for everything and then if/when you got it it was just a utility thing, with no panache. We love Italian sports cars, not russian tractors.

I know there are an infinite number of components and bikes I'll never be able to afford, however, sometimes you find or fall into some kool components you have no real use for, that just transcend normal cycling components. It doesn't matter that they could get you a full unremarkable bike in trade. Sometimes we need to experience the remarkable, and share the remarkable to break up the monotony.

For me the bicycle is more than just transportation. I love bicycles. I get the CNC derailleur era. I was geeked to try to foist mine onto PastorBob. I was crushed when he didn't respond to my offer in this thread or my PMs at first. I didn't want that derailleur to hoard it, or to have it where others didn't. I wanted it to exist, and I wanted to share its wacky existence with someone that would actually ride it. Eventually I'll get it back. Probably. Mostly. Mabye PastorBob takes the derailleur with him if he goes off and joins ISIS. If it gets bombed overseas that would be sad. Its a kool derailleur. My life was made richer for having seen it, shared it, touched it, and knowing that it exists. Ten boxes of Shimanoculture wouldn't manage the same reaction.

How many components, frames, or anything cycling represents art? A perfect blend of form and function? It could shift like absolute garbage and it would still be my favorite derailleur. Until I found a Paul's or a Proshift, that is. Then it would be a cage match and PastorBob would need two more bikes to have to give us a real shootout road test. Then the fun would be in arguing with his results and telling him he didn't know what the hell he was talking about. If he says one shifts better you say but the other one looks better. If he says one looks better you say the other one shifts better. That's what makes CNC derailleurs so kool. They are art and derailleurs.

Then someone would come on and scoff at our common derailleurs and post about his White LMDS, and we'd all realize we'll go to our graves never having shifted one. Which in the end is just not quite fair, is it? I'd rather they exist even if I never see one, than to live in a world where it doesn't:

White Industries LMDS derailleur

mtnbke

Sorry, not buying it. That looks TOTALLY Photoshopped.

That looks like the fat "I'm content with second place" Jan Ullrich on an LSD bender in the German Countryside. That would explain the Continental with the Campagnolo with a CNC derailleur. That only happens in hallucinogenic delusions, right?

IthaDan 

Amen.

crank_addict

Why not repop them for peanuts?

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