I'm equipping a 650b bike to use for long-distance, randonneur-type rides. The rear will be 9-speed 13/30, front will be a 46/30 compact double, and I'll use bar-end friction shifters, probably Rivendell Silver Shifters. I've used indexed down tube and bar-end shifters for the past few years, but last summer finished refurbishing a couple of C&V bikes with down tube friction shifters and found little disadvantage to friction compared to indexed. I was afraid I'd become spoiled, but I guess not. However, I had to trim the rear derailleur on one of the bikes---a circa 1984 Shimano with a 6-speed rear---more than I thought I should have to, and on the new bike I'd like to get the advantage of friction shifters without the disadvantage of having to find just the right spot through micrometer-sized adjustments to the shift lever.

So my question is: Is there an ideal rear derailleur for my purpose? If there is, I'm figuring it'll be some classic derailleur from the 70's or 80's, when friction was king, hence my category selection. Older or newer would be fine, too, since I'm not constrained by period or what was originally there. Specifically, I'm looking for a smart derailleur that'll accommodate my gear range, is reliable, shifts smoothly, and will know which gear I want and go to it with little to no fine-tuning.

I know that's asking a lot, but I'm sure one's been made. Anybody got a favorite that fits those criteria?

I have never used 9 speed & friction together. I imagine it would be quite finicky to adjust. I would think something like a 7 speed cassette would work more smoothly. Plus 9 cogs make for allot of reaching for the downtube. This will be interesting.

No particular derailleur comes to mind, but I'm thinking a derailleur that has just enough range to span the 9sp cluster, but has a fairly low cable-pull ratio would be ideal. I unfortunately have no clue as to what the differences of pull ratio are between SunTour - Shimano - Simplex - Campagnolo in the golden age of friction shifting. However one really can't go wrong with a good SunTour Cyclone if it will play nicely with a 9sp chain and cassette.

My long cage Ultegra shifts an SRAM 8s cassette beautifully. Shifters will make a difference. I'm taking the SRAM 8s cassette to an '87 Deore equipped bike with Dia Compe Silver bar ends and don't anticipate any issues.

I've been using an old Campy Recoed derailler and Huret (I think) levers which are really long. I think the length helps.

Well not 9 but I also use a SRAM 8s cassette. NR RD and shifters though. I imagine the newer RDs would be a pleasure to shift friction though. However, I'm not sure I'd want to go more than 8s friction. Very small increments in lever movement per shift, can't imagine it getting more miniscule.

Thanks. The 9-speed is a carryover from my original plan to go with index shifters, but now that I think about it, I don't really need 9 in back as long as the rear spacing didn't change if I went with fewer. I still want the 13/30 range, though. If 9 is a limiting factor then I'll reconsider it.

With friction shifting, you can't go far wrong with any derailer of decent quality with it's spring still intact and its pivots working as they ought to. You'll mostly need to make sure that whatever RD you chose can handle a 30t cog; many can, but some cannot. I'd mostly worry about running such a one-sided gear ratio; nothing wrong with the 30/30 on the low end, but a 46/13 with 650b wheels seems like you'll be wanting a taller gear on any of the long rides you're planning, especially on flat straightaways and declines. I'd keep your freakish crankset as is, but couple it with a 11/28 cassette for a usuable high gear, and very little lost on the low end. (really, i don't know if you'd need a 1:1 for anything on the road, short of fully loaded touring or alpine passes.)

As for needing to trim your old 6 speed rear more than you'd like, and the contributor above who speculated that friction shifting on a 9speed cassette would be more finicky is suffering from a common misconception. Because 9 speed cogs are spaced more closely together, they require less trim than, say, a 6 speed. They say that this advantage ends with 10 speed, but when i switched my ten speed barcons to friction, i found that it took some time to get the throws right (had to readjust to get the chain on the proper cog, as opposed to trimming it to keep it from bouncing on the cog), but that trimming wasn't really an issue. Still, if you've not yet got the shifters for this project, it's tough to beat shimano 9 speed barcons with a 9 speed cassette at $85 or so.

Like cnl.lloyd said above, the shifters make a huge difference and are, imo, more important than the RD.

-rob

I'd recommend a 9-sp Ultegra or 9-sp 105, or an 8-sp 600 tricolor.

The big difference is still the shifters, and I'd recommend a ratcheting model.

I ran a 9-sp cassette with 600EX, with no problem, other than overshifting all the time. Definitlely takes practice.

I then moved to a 10-sp cassette with 2x10 indexed DT shifting, and yep, I was shifting all the time, but learned to anticipate better. 2x10 DA downtube shifters are ace.

If you do not want too little travel between gears, a small-barrel shifter, such as an older Campag., would work well w/ a long-pull derailleur, such as an older SunTour.

I'm currently running an ultegra 9-speed cassette in the rear with Suntour Sprint 9000, which was/is of course Accushiftable, and Retrofriction shifters. I'm rather impressed with it, it does take more than a bit of getting used to, and yes you do shift a lot.

I feel sort of like I'm getting away with murder doing it though, since the whole thing cost me pretty much nothing.

I rode my '80 Voyageur today and the trimming / microadjustments were much more annoying on its wide range 6-speed cluster than my 9-spd.

I am sort of new at this also with a similar challenge. I have a newer rear wheel with an 8 speed 13-23 cassette that I would like to use with regular Campy down tube friction levers and Campy NR rear.

Is a 9 speed chain, besides re-adjusting the rear der and opening the rear triangle a little bit, all I need to get to be able to use the 8 speed cassette on my vintage Viner/Riggio?

I thought I read somewhere that older rear der might have an issue with the newer narrower chains.

I have a 9 speed SRAM cassette with a Shimano 105 from the mid 90's using friction shifting. Works well, but took a bit of finagling to get it dialed in. I also have bar end shifters that allow for a lot of cable travel.

I ran a Cyclone on an 8 speed with an 11-34 using Suntour Barcons... it ran beautifully.

i currently use a silver 105 10 speed with barcons on a 10 speed cassette with one cog pulled to fit an old deore dx hub. works great with minimal trimming. i think 'trimming' is just a matter of knowing your shifter.. i never heard of 'trimming' before SIS existed.. it was just 'shifting'.

ClydesterD, To be safe WRT amount of travel I'd use a long cage 8S+ RD. I've had excellant results with 105, Ultegra, XT and XTR.

Brad

I have set up several bikes with 9-speed and barends. Although I run them in SIS, I have tried them in friction and they work fine once you get the hang of it, but I still prefer indexed.

A couple of thoughts -- go with 9-speed indexed barends and you can always run them friction if you want.

Most of the Shimano road RDs will handle up to 28, which I found to be a plenty low gear with a compact. If you really want a 30t gear, you will have to go with a long cage. I have used both a 105 RD with a long cage and Deore XT. I also suggest you go with a fairly modern RD, you know, something manufactured in the last 15 years. Such RDs can be had fairly cheaply on CL or the Bay.

That sounds like an ideal situation. Suntour Sprint shifters, too, work well on 8/9/10 rears, friction-wise. They are easy to shift and stay put.

I know it's ugly as sin, but I'm running a 952 XTR with my friction-modified Command shifters. I like the RapidRise with them, but you can find them both ways for relatively low $. Admittedly, it's the highest end RD I've spent time with but I can't believe how sharp the gear changes are.

Rapidrise/low-normal rear derailers are one of those things that are at once awesome and highly unpopular. They're beyond under-appreciated, and i love the Rapidrise derailers that i've used, particularly on bikes with barcons or thumbies.

But, they're one of these things that hasn't even caught on with even the techiest modern cyclists, so of course, they probably won't find love among the denizens of C&V. My prediction? the future c&v set will covet and hoard all the rapidrise derailers they can find, and write long, ranting posts about how strange it was that cyclists contemporary to the rapidrise never embraced them. Then, they'll unearth this thread (and others like it) in a random search, and in a few generations, bikenerds will revere me as the god of rapidrise.

OK, that may be a bit much, but seriously, if you're going to put a mtb-style rear derailer on your bike, and you don't mind the look of modern ones, rapidrise is certainly worth checking out.

-rob

Most Shimano derailleurs are rated conservatively for the masses. They can often do more than they are rated for. I have as an example a bike with a 48/34 front and have used a 11-32 and an 11-30 9 speed cassette shifted by 9 speed bar ends and a mid cage Ultegra rear dérailleur.

My recent build is also 650b and running a 46/30 crank. I am running the downtube silver shifters shifting an 8 spd 12-26 casette. The rear dérailleur is an 8spd Shimano 105 and the front is Nuovo Record. I had the matching NR rear, but I didn't like how it shifted.

I also have a VX that is switching 8 beautifully... with bar cons the pull decreases through the shifter's range so the shifts at the bottom are a little tighter but aren't problematic.

When I upgraded my 86 Falcon from 6sp to 9sp several years ago, I put Campy Centaur rear deraileur. Centaur was 9sp at that time and was a "current year" component, as was the Chorus hub as I built up the wheels. Original downtube shifters were also Campy as was the front deraileur.

+1 with regards to the Ultegra. I had a 9spd long cage on my Franklin. Shifted very smoothly in friction. The long cage is only rated for 27 teeth. I ran it with a 28 without any problems, but not sure about 30