When C&V stops making sense - the saddle
 

With many things C&V we crave period correct, and the look of a horizontal top tube with a -17 drop stem. A positive rise stem uses less material and is stiffer AND lighter, but just doesn't look right. It looks like it belongs on a hybrid bike ridden by old people in their Florida retirement community. Its about form as much as function. We use road drop handlebars on most of our bikes when the vast majority of us can't actually ride in the drops for any meaningful proportion of our mileage on the frame sizes we think actually fit us. Most of us are perched up on the hoods and stay there throughout most rides. We like the way an aggressive racing geometry bike looks, even modern compact geometry bikes with aggressive saddle to bars drops, and massive saddle to drop position drops. We wouldn't even consider riding bikes in either the size we would properly fit to be able to comfortably ride in the position in the drops, or to use quill/stem risers. Most of us hate the look of head tube extensions on custom frames, even though those more properly accommodate recreational and competitive cycling fit for the 99% of us that don't have the fitness, flexibility, and form of professional CAT 1 roadies. We like what we like.

However, I'm going to suggest that we stop liking vintage saddles and the likes of Brooks, Ideale, and Selle Anatomica saddles with specificity. Vintage and hard leather saddles look great on the bike, in fact they look ideal, not to make a bad pun. I love my Selle Anatomica saddle and copper rivets and rails. Nothing else even comes close.

However, I've ridden on plenty of saddles that cause nerve compression and just don't adequately protect the cyclist from injury. Yes, I posted INJURY. Your bike fit and saddle shouldn't injure your health or cause inflammation of the prostrate which can lead to an increased risk of prostate cancer. Your saddle shouldn't contribute to erectile dysfunction, nerve compression or unduly restrict blood flow to your bits.

We've come a long long way in the science of bringing Urologists and test data to compare and baseline saddle design. I think its long past the point where we continue to ride art saddles like Brooks and start thinking about what really is healthy for our undercarriage. Hard leather saddles stretched across steel frames ain't healthy, and that's not-debatable. The empirical measurements show that such saddles significantly decrease blood flow to the perineal region, and specifically to the penis.

I think its time to acknowledge that there really isn't any place on a bike for a C&V saddle, which is sad, but compromising our health, increasing our cancer risk, and having a less comfortable saddle because of the way it looks off the bike is just so fallacious I don't know where to start. Rule number one in the modern context of what we've learned actually empirically measuring blood flow from cyclists positioned on different saddles should be: first do no harm.

I think C&V saddles make zero sense in that enlightened context. I think Brooks, Ideale, and Selle Anatomica saddles have to be shelved with a notion that they are neither healthy nor beneficial for the cyclist, beautiful or not.

I think the Specialized Power saddle is one of the fugliest saddles I've ever seen, but I'm considering the absurd notion of switching to them on all my bikes. I don't ride bikes to develop a large prostrate and to cause it inflammation, raising my risk for developing prostrate cancer. I don't ride bikes to increase my risk of developing sexual dysfunction. I don't ride bikes to damage my perineal nerves.

I think I'm intelligent enough to not care what something look like, ugly or not, if it prevents me from actually injuring my body in a way that other saddles just can't. Will they look good on classic and vintage bikes? Nope, and that's okay.

Specialized Power saddle review | CyclingTips

Looking over this data you'd have to be an idiot to still be riding on C&V saddles at this point:

http://www.specialized.com/OA_MEDIA/...WhitePages.pdf

Interesting backstory on the development of the saddles that minimize restricted blood flow, and how they went about actually experimenting with the different designs in a race context. One thing the piece is absolutely correct about is that Body Geometry saddles were widely panned. A lot of shops mocked the products and spread misinformation about the saddles to their customers. Which is interesting in that we'd listen to a hack making $10/hr and ignore the data coming from medical professionals and researchers, but that's cycling in a nutshell right there.

Evolution of the Specialized Romin Saddle ? Interview with Dr. Roger Minkow

Now if only Specialized would make a C&V saddle offering.

[Edit] Many posters take this discussion WAY off topic so wade through this discussion if you want to learn a lot about forum member's preferences for music, movies etc. Or to basically learn that most of them can't comprehend the literature that suggests that a cyclist can't "Feel" nerve damage happening, even on a saddle they deem comfortable. Also the medical research showing diminished perineal area blood flow used normal cycling sized cyclists NOT people my height/weight. That's lost on many responders. This discussion devolves into a "don't challenge us with anything that threatens our preconceptions." It read's like a bunch of smoker's in the 1950s in denial.

I road 126 miles on Saturday on my B17. I did not wear padded cycling shorts. I had and have no issues. Just ask my wife. You need to ride more and post less. Troll.

Show up at a 600K or 1200K brevet, and you will find that more than half of the cyclists are on suspended leather saddles.

I have watched you post and developed a real question for you...why do you bother coming into the C&V threads? You simply bash almost everything that is C&V...and take a "holier than thou" attitude...your opinions are slanted and the information that you share supports your slanted opinions...

So, it really makes me wonder...why?

Cut-outs /= comfort for my bum, at least in the ones I've tried. To each his own.

:rolleyes:

:thumb:

I only rode 103 miles on Saturday, on a Swallow-type saddle that I recovered myself. Cotton trousers and cotton briefs. No issues.

While I don't suggest or think some forum call to shelving vintage(style) saddles is necessary, I also have 0 use for them. I haven't used a Brooks, but I also don't want to allocate $150 to test if I like it.

There are tons of modern touches that people make to their bikes- lined brake and shift housing, brifters, SPD pedals, cushioned bar tape, riser stems, threadless converter stems, etc etc etc.
You certainly enjoy painting with a broad brush by claiming 'we' like riding with quill threadless stems and 'we' enjoy ill fitting bicycles.
Modern saddles are just like all these other modern components. Bikes were meant to be used and part of that use is replacing worn components. There is no magical line where componentry became improper to use because it is too modern. That line, if it exists, is in the eye of the beholder and it should rightfully remain there. To each their own when it comes to what components to use and why.

I love a Serfas RX saddle which is cut in half lengthwise- Its really comfortable- firm but cushioned and flexible but stiff. Not sure how that all works, but it works for me. Saddles are so individual, that whatever works should be what is used.

That specialized it neat, but I think this one might be even better for you.
http://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/111576...-1/s-l1000.jpg

I'm not sure if he's really trolling or just does not communicate his feeling quite right to us.
Instead of saying "stop loving" C&V saddles he mentioned, maybe mtnbke should just ask for help with suggestions for alternatives to C&V saddles that he can try out, but not try to convince everyone (in this forum, especially) to quit "loving"/using C&V saddles......
I might not feel the same impact as others from his statement about C&V saddles cause I myself had experienced problems with certain C&V saddles in the past, so I can relate, but Heck!, I'd really go berserk if someone tries to even suggest to me to stop loving bacon today!:rolleyes::p

To each their own. I don't find Brooks or any similar type saddles comfortable at all. Some people do. I do agree with your sentiments on you shouldn't sacrifice comfort for looks. I had a friend who almost was going to give up on cycling because his back was bad and drops were killing him and he refused to roll with mustache bars. Eventually he gave them a try, now he doesn't shut up about them and can do a 200 mile ride and still go to Disneyland the next day.

I think the OP is completely overstating or misunderstanding the position people in this form have on saddles. Resulting in an overly broad, inaccurate statement.

There is no slavish focus on 'vintage', which in and of it self is not even a correct term.

The most common position is simple: Saddles are very personal and you need to find what works for you. YMMV

Beyond that many people ride "vintage" saddle because they work for the individual.

all of my saddles are "Vintage" a brooks b-17, a brooks swift and a sella italia turbo.

but not all brooks work for me. Professional....no go, B-17 N imperial (cutout seat) no go (pinched things it shouldn't pinch) but many other people love these.

In many many cases brooks work for people and that is why the get recommended. But they also get recommended with the caveat of fine tuning needed, have to match shape to bottom and have to match saddle to position on the bike (degrees of uprightness)

All of this is about function and comfort and little is about vintage

After getting my first Brooks, I won't get anything else. It was a real eye-opener for me.

The OP contains an excess of opinion based upon a completely false premise. I have tried many saddles in the search for comfort (or at least less pain). I finally arrived at the Brooks B-17 Imperial, which is the most comfortable saddle I've ever ridden. I was quite surprised that it was actually comfortable straight out of the box, before any break in period had elapsed. The bonus is that it also looks good!

Note that in contrast, the Brooks Pro that came on my old Raleigh International was never comfortable for me, so I got rid of it. Not all suspended leather saddles are comfortable, neither are they all uncomfortable.

Also, the OP sure makes a lot of false generalizations about things like stem height, riding in the drops, etc. For example: "Most of us are perched up on the hoods and stay there throughout most rides." I'm an old guy and I ride in the drops frequently. It makes a huge difference when riding long distances at speed or into a headwind. The only concession I've had to make to age has been raising the bars so that the tops are even with the saddle.

Its just silly. "When _____ stops making sense - _______"

Really? Leading into the topic of cancer?
To make the connection of ones bike saddle leading into cancer is beyond me. Whats next?

I swim regularly and countless laps in a pool full of chemicals. And just like millions of other swimmers who've been doing it for years with a very healthy outlook. Are you going to tell me pool chem's are going to get me? Same with cycling. By doing so, most are in a healthier state of mind and body. I'll gladly take these risk.

I read this thread with a little surprise, and a healthy dose of skepticism. I've ridden upon many, many, MANY saddles. A whole bunch of them simply aren't for me. I need to be comfortable when I ride. And of course everyone knows the old adage: YMMV. So, when I say that a Brooks Pro fits me very well (it does), and a Brooks B17 does not (it definitely does not), there's plenty of us on here the opposite proves true. I've got a brother-in-law who very comfortably rides very upright on one of Brooks' "big butt" saddles - I've tried, and I feel like I get lost on it. Personally, I really like the Cambium C17, but others have had different experiences than me. But that's just Brooks. One of my ride buddies loves his Anatomica but it left me feeling kind of "meh." I love the Regal too, which, like most Brooks, is still made and sold.

I find it a little weird that the only two C&V posts I've read recently where I felt like one of the posters had incongruously found himself in the wrong place were both written by the OP: here and over in the thread about updating a bike. Both posts were fairly tough bashes on two of the most storied of bicycle components - Brooks and 531 steel.

I'm not a doctor (just married to one), but I thought the connections to cancer and impotence and bicycle saddles had largely been disproven. Adequate fit - something that many of us on these forums seem to know quite a lot about - has been shown to alleviate most concerns "down there." Or at least that's what I've been led to believe. If I'm wrong about this - and gosh knows that wouldn't be the first time - someone please set me straight.

I've ridden the same Brooks B-17-clone Fujita Belt saddle that came on my S-10S for well over 45,000 miles. I never had padded cycling shorts in all that time. Now I do - but only wear them if riding more than 50 miles (approx three hours) at a time. For my 10 or 12 mile one-way commute - nope.

Oh, don't get me wrong, it originally took several hundred miles spread over a few weeks for the saddle and my butt to come to a mutual understanding. It also takes a week or so every Spring. After that, it really doesn't bother me.

Now I'm faced with the task of replacing the cheap SSO (SEAT-shaped objects) on my latest acquisitions. Since my butt is already broken in to my Fuji's hard leather saddle, I suppose it only makes sense to get the same style for the other two so they fit/feel similar.

Strange thread. My most comfortable saddle is a 50 year old unpadded plastic saddle - more comfortable by far than any modern saddle I've tried, so I'm going to call nonsense on this one. If a saddle was doing you "harm" you would experience symptoms like numbness and discomfort. Also a saddle that works for me might be torture for someone else, modern or vintage.

Also, for the record I do have a slavish devotion to vintage.

We're all gonna DIE! :cry:

However I doubt my Brooks saddle is going to be the cause of it. :p Brooks saddles are one of the few that I can get on, brand new out of the box and they only get more comfortable the more I ride them. I think I have 7 at the moment. No they aren't for everybody. Ride what works for you.

Aaron :)

Ooooo, another mtnbke post. Nothing like a long winded spiel crapping all over C&V enthusiasts' tastes, questioning their intelligence while framing it as "I'm just here to help."

I'm relatively new here and I already have this guy figured out. I am though shocked, SHOCKED there wasn't more mention of aluminum in that. I think he might have rushed it. :rolleyes:

shhhhh! He's trying to help us out by driving the price down on vintage saddles. ;)

OP is also a sucker for slick advertising. Be wary of data presented by someone trying to sell you something.

I have a Specialized Toupe saddle which I like a lot because it's comfy, not because I'm worried about my junk falling off. In general I'm not a fan of vintage saddles because I don't like the look of many of them, but I do like my Turbo saddle and it looks good on my Merckx (IMO). Also if it was 100% about perfect comfort, we'd all be cruising on recumbents.

I wonder what he said this time to rile everyone up? All I see is this.

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=483331

Hey, I think I finally finally have a use for this guy!

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/656/20...a68e7c82_b.jpg

I was a Brooks B17 fan for over a decade and always assumed it was the most comfortable saddle ever made. Of course I didn't have the money and patience to experiment with other saddles then.
But back in '07, I decided to see what the ergonomics revolution had produced and tried one of those Specialized saddles with the fart-chute in the middle.
Specialized (very wisely) had a saddle exchange program, so you could exchange your saddle width and model until you found the apple of your @$$'s eye. I tried 11 different saddles before going back to the Avatar (which was sadly discontinued in 2009.)
I recently rode on my old Brooks around the parking lot and it feels like @$$hell to me now by comparison.
Not joining the OP's (bigoted IMO) observation, just pointing out that what works for you may not work for everyone, but don't be bashful about trying new saddles. Even with my beloved '09 Avatar, I still can still get buttsore after a spirited century, but not nearly as badly as I used to with that Brooks.

Clearly your saddle du jour is better than saddles used for over a hundred years.