Vintage Raleigh

Hi all, was searching for freewheels and found a thread here about freewheel maintenance - fascinating!!!

So the International project is going slowly and acquired a Grand Prix in the interim which is now a rider, very happy!

Both bikes need new 5 speed freewheels and as they're now 'collectors items' I'm inspired to do some regular freewheel maintenance. Thanks Father Bob!

Ease of maintenance is the main criteria for purchase so was wondering what is the consensus on grading them from complicated to easy to work on.

Ideally I buy 2 of the same brand then have to only buy 1 type of remover.
After reading the thread, assuming the tools I need are: vice, remover, 2 x chain whips, pin tool (or punch) and hammer.

Phew!

Thanks everyone for your expertise and experience in advance.

Cheers, Matthew

pastorbobnlnh 

Matthew, thanks for the mention--- but I'm not a "Father" in the sense you use (although I do have a daughter). Just a humble, rural village, Presbyterian pastor.

Since you mention 5 speed, all of the below I refer to would be 5 speed or ultra spaced 6 speed freewheels.

My recommendation is to absolutely avoid Suntour New Winner freewheels. I have about a 10-20% success rate in servicing them. For multiple reasons. All the other Suntour models are straight forward and basically the same to service and are easy.

The older Reginas which used threaded sprockets in all five positions can be a challenge to both remove the sprockets for cleaning or replacement, and because the pawls and springs are rather loose and don't like to stay in place as you reassemble cleaned and greased bodies. The same can be true for Atoms, Everest, and Cyclo freewheels. Avoid these if you can.

Maillards are generally okay to service and work on.

Thus the easiest and most straight forward to service and maintain would be Suntour (except New Winner) and Shimano freewheels. Maillards would be a close second choice.

SJX426 

Good question and great answer! Learned something new already today!

Wileyone 

Very true but at my age it will all be forgotten by tomorrow.

1991BRB1

Hi Pastor Bob, hope you don't mind the query - I have heard that NW fw's are designed to be rebuilt/serviced and other sites/people have recommended them for that reason. I have one, and I've got the adjustment spanner...and I know the people at Yellow Jersey will refurbish them if it's beyond me.

If you don't mind, can you highlight the issues that you've encountered with these FW's that put them in the "not recommended" category?

Thanks

John E

"Thus the easiest and most straight forward to service and maintain would be Suntour (except New Winner) and Shimano freewheels. Maillards would be a close second choice."

The good pastor speaks the truth.

Also, if you work on a Regina, a piece of fishing line (to hold the pawls in place temporarily) is your friend.

pastorbobnlnh 

There are at least two primary reasons:

First, sprocket removal. I believe it is important to remove and completely clean the sprockets. The reason for doing so is to remove as much contaminating grime from the drive train. The cleaner you can keep everything the longer everything will last, and the longer between needing to service the freewheel. I advise removing your freewheel at least once a year to do two things; grease the threads on the hub to keep the freewheel from seizing in place, and to remove and clean the sprockets.

New Winner and the other Winner freewheels used very brittle steel. This is why on a stubbornly stuck to the hub Suntour, the notched freewheel removal tool breaks the notch which is part of the inner body. Again, this is a good reason to remove the freewheel once a year and grease the hub threads.

In the case of the New Winners I have worked on (maybe about 2 dozen), more then half have seized sprockets that will not thread off. I have actually broken teeth trying to remove the threaded sprockets on New Winners, which IIRC, on a five or six speed model is at least three sprockets.

Second, the (so called) adjustable races: On the New Winner Suntour decided to do away with washer like spacers underneath the outer bearing race/retaining ring. Instead they devised a very complicated adjustable bearing race/retaining ring. This race requires a special spanner wrench to fit into very small and sloped notches. The wrench easily slips out of the notches, basically proving itself as worthless.

Also, if you want to open the New Winner up to service, most of the time I have found the threads on this complicated adjustable race to have seized. No amount of penetrating oil or heat seems to let the threads release from each other. Since the special wrench does not fit well, it is worthless when using on stuck threads.

The next option is to take out hammer and punch and go to beating the race. But because it does not contain the holes (which most freewheels use), but small sloped notches, using the punch is very challenging. Besides, remember the brittle steel mentioned above? It is easy with a punch to ruin the retaining ring once and for all (which is not a big deal since it was ruined when it was made in the first place).

For these reasons, if someone contacts me and asks if I can service a New Winner, I warn them in advance that I will most likely fail. I have them send me pictures and then I advise as whether I think the postage to send it my way is just wasting their money.

Fishing line! Perfect! I use waxed dental floss or tape. But it can still be a tricky procedure which can frustrate a Freewheel Medic to no end!

Since this is a thread about maintaining freewheels, let me put up a few pictures of the Sachs Aris seven speed I'm sending back to a customer today.

Before Photos: Notice the chewed up bearing cages. Maybe a small dog got a hold of these!?!. The pawls were sticking closed and wouldn't engage.









After spending a day in the Spa: A Happy Freewheel!

Brewsmith 

I'm sure you have covered this before, but how are you removing the sprockets? I have repacked the bearings in a Shimano freewheel before, but never could figure out how to break down the sprockets

justin10054

Newer, splined Regina CX freewheels are almost delightful to work on. I bought a NOS one from Boulder Bicycle for a very reasonable price, but the oil in the bearings had hardened so it needed to be serviced. As it was a 5-speed freewheel, I didn't need to remove the first cog to access the pin spanner holes in the bearing cone race.

Unlike the older Regina freewheels, it uses a retainer clip to hold the pawls in place which also acts as the spring. It's a very ingenious design. Working on older models, I had to resort to using dental floss to hold the pawls down and it was a very frustrating experience. Working with greasy dental floss, springs, and 10,000 tiny bearings isn't really my idea of fun.

I strongly recommend not using two chain whips to remove threaded cogs. It's much easier if you screw the freewheel to a long piece of plywood and use one chain whip to loosen the cogs.

mtnbke

It's a matter of debate, but I don't believe you can buy a better shifting or higher quality freewheel 5/6/7 than an IRD Classica. Super high zoot quality.

pastorbobnlnh 

I have a special tool which has a chain attached and can be clamped in a vise. Then use one chain whip to unthread the smallest sprocket. You can also use two chain whips. Do this while the freewheel is attached to the wheel. One holds and the other unthreads.

I call this a compression spring. As best I know this is used on all modern freewheels. Also used on Suntour Winners, Sachs, and Shimanos.

I just bought one and it is nice. Better than others? I'm not certain. Seems as nice as modern Sunrace and Shimano ones.

justin10054

I believe this is called a "freewheel vise". I have seen VAR branded ones and presumably others made them as well. My plywood method is basically the poor man's version of a freewheel vise.

Trying to wrestle a freewheel with a chain whip in each hand is awkward and a good way to injure yourself. I don't recommend it.

Vintage Raleigh

Hi all thanks for your responses. Pastor Bob please excuse me for my inattention, I know better.

So your insight has made me rethink a purchase as the Grand Prix has a Maillard freewheel which I'll now attempt servicing.

But before I do that, I'm confused about the nomenclature -
• Is an Atom Normandy Maillard an Atom or Maillard?
• Does a Sachs Maillard have the same internals and sprokets as an earlier steel Maillard (are any interchangable?)
• Where does the Helliomatic fit in?
• Do Sach Maillard make a steel 5 speed?
• What is mine then - it's a steel (assuming original by the condition) 5 speed with Maillard and some zeros or naughts stamped on the high gear. (sorry i should take it off to have a proper look) and a serrated female centre to which fits the remover.
• Are there 2 types of removers for Maillards depending on the model or more?

Many thanks, and looking forward to delving into the abyss. Cheers, Matthew

justin10054

There's something therapeutic about meticulously cleaning all those tiny little bearings. Of course the frustration of trying to put the damn thing back together again undoes that pretty quickly. So it's a bit of a yin and yang situation.

pastorbobnlnh 

First, take a few pictures and post in order that we know we are talking about the same model. Until we see it we won't know what type of remover to recommend. When I was talking about Maillard I was talking about this type of puppy.



Atoms are very similar to the Regina Corsa or other Regina model 5 speeds. The threaded sprockets, retaining rings, and spacers can all be interchanged. I've even transplanted a splined Atom inner body into a Regina outer body (doesn't always work).



A Sachs Maillard has different internals from an earlier Maillard. I'm guessing a S-M made a five speed but I've only seen a few and they were 6 speeds.

Helliomatic is more like a modern cassette and only fits on Helliomatic specific hubs. I've only read about them and never seen one in person.

The abyss can be very deep!

I've found with a bit of grease on my fingers I can sometimes pick up 6-8 bearings at a time. I do it on a clean paper towel and the "pits" in the towel keep the bearings in place. Maybe I spend 3-4 minutes inserting the clean bearings into the fresh grease on the races.

For cleaning, if you don't have an ultrasonic cleaner and loose tea strainer to place the bearings, pawls, springs and spacers in, try this method to clean:

Place all the tiny bits in a plastic container such as a quart sized yogurt container. If they are really dirty (such as the Sachs above), spray with WD40 and let soak for 10-15 minutes (if they are not bad skip this step). Swirl the bits in the WD40 every few minutes. Absorb the excess WD40 with a paper towel. Add a very generous amount of Dawn dish detergent. Add the hottest water your tap will provide, just enough to cover the bits and thin the Dawn so it is more liquid. Swirl in the container as much as needed. Carefully drain away the excess soapy water and rinse until the water is clean. Repeat if needed.

Carefully dump the clean bearings and bits onto a paper towel. Fold up everything into a nice neat packet, and place in the oven at about 150-200F for 15 or so minutes to dry.

1991BRB1

Thanks Very Much for the insight and the detail...Oh c&v...

JohnDThompson 

The SunTour TA-120 was a combination freewheel vise and hub axle vise. Long out of production, so I can understand your plywood version, but they still turn up on ebay.

pastorbobnlnh 

If you can find the Bicycle Research Freewheel Vice, it works so much better then the Suntour model pictured by @JohnDThompson. Don't pay the astronomical price of $200 that our friends at PB Bikes is asking. IIRC I paid about $40.

old's'cool

So far, with 3 or 4 New Winner freewheels, I have not failed to successfully dismantle and overhaul them. My method, when the adjustable races do not loosen via gentle persuasion with a light hammer and cold chisel, is to heat with a torch. It's been a while, so I don't recall the exact details, but the idea is to get the heat on the outer body, so it expands and loosens. Obviously, don't get the metal red hot, but don't worry about the oil and grease coking - you can clean all that off after you get it apart.

old's'cool

I had one very stubborn 13T sprocket that would not loosen with any amount of force or impact, even to the point of damaging the other sprockets I was using to restrain the cluster while applying the impacts to the 13T sprocket, with a punch, IIRC. It was clear by then that the 13T and one or 2 other sprockets were write-offs. I finally succeeded in dismantling the cluster, by using a Dremel type cutting tool to cut the 13T sprocket open. From there everything came apart easily. It turned out that the entire cluster was well embedded with sand, which is why the 13T was so stubbornly stuck.

Vintage Raleigh

Hi Pastor Bob et al, back again!
Ok, so here's some pics of the Maillard on the Grand Prix.
The hubs are Normandy and the skewers are MM Atom, assuming all original.
The bike had been out in the weather for a while so the freewheel was removed from the hub by the LBS and soaked in petrol.
Then left in warmed up synthetic chainsaw oil, which after that the freewheel seemed looser that normal tolerances and a bit rough when spinning. I squirted some white grease into the gaps and it came out brown the other side. I haven't dismantled it but suspect it needs a proper clean and bearings.






I was going to purchase this but will wait for some consensus as to what it is -




https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/281756903827?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Here's the listing for the Freewheel which is my cause of confusion:
• Is the freewheel in the listing a Maillard?
• Will one removal tool work for this and my existing freewheel?

pastorbobnlnh 

@Vintage Raleigh those are basically the same freewheel, the ebay listing is just a newer version. They use the same tool for removal. I'd recommend servicing both.
@old's'cool that is cool (sic) that you have had great luck with the New Winner. Do you want a couple I'd like to unload cheap?

Vintage Raleigh

Fantastic! Thanks Pastor Bob, much appreciated! Cheers, Matthew.

As I've only had the Grand Prix going for a month am still getting used to feeling the change and found it difficult to put in in the second highest sprocket.
I've noticed now in the pics the second highest sprocket shows little signs of wear, interesting.

A quick question for you Pastor Bob if that's ok.
If I used a new chain and replace the highest sprocket would that then fix the potential problem of slipping when using a new chain and old freewheel?

top506

Are any Ultra-6 13-23 or 24?

Top

pastorbobnlnh 

Just to make certain we are referring to the same sprocket, I'm guessing you mean the the second largest tooth count sprocket? That sprocket is splined and not threaded.

Replacing it at the same time might help, but maybe not. Who knows? But you will when you try it! I've found that the Maillards, Atoms, and Reginas all like to allow a chain to ride along the top edge of the teeth, or "skate," when the RD is in an incorrect position between sprockets. Maybe this is what you mean by "slipping."

BTW, that looks to be the 24T sprocket. I can probably help you out with that if you think the postage cost from the USA to Australia is worth it.

Top, let me check. My friends went by your store last weekend to visit their family in ME. They asked if I needed to "ship" anything to Top. Maybe on their next trip they can take you some New Winners, and bring back a surprise?