Derailleurs that fit Simplex Dropouts?
 

I have a new to me '70 PX-10 that will become a daily commuter (37 mile round trip) and candidate for L'Eroica California 200k.
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=490519http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=490520
The Simplex Criterium work fine in the stand and around the block but I want something more durable long term. This bike will remain a 5 speed with the Stronglight 93 crankset and original un-modified dropouts. I don't need much capacity as I consider myself quite heroic and will likely run nothing gentler than a 14/24.
My questions:
1.) Will ALL of the newer Simplex RD like Super LS 5000 and 6000 or SX 410 and 610 fit the simplex dropouts ?
2.) Will the Spidel and Gipiemme rebrands also fit?
3.) Are there other makes/models that would be plug and play with these dropouts?
Do these "modern" all metal derailleurs have any weaknesses that I should be aware of as I look for a used one?

While not quite plug and play you can tap the hole (10x1) and use a Shimano Crane (or titlist) without any problems. I did this on one of my px-10s so I could use a long cage derailleur. If I ever come across a long cage simplex I might swap it out since the threads don't interfere with the simplex style of mounting.

Note that some, if not most of the later Simplex RDs from the very late 70's and into the 80's had springed upper pivots that do not require a threaded hole at the hanger, as the derailleur has to be able to swing back and forth on the upper pivot bolt.....

1. yes
2. yes
3. yes
4. not particularly but non-Simplex derailleurs require the 9mm mounting hole to be threaded with a 10mm x 1mm tap.

Not being sarcastic but... Google is your friend... It's the easiest way to search the Bike Forum archives. I did a 2 minute search and came up with these results.

Check out my messages in these threads, these 2 offer the most information for your requirements:

http://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vi...-capacity.html

http://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vi...-10-frame.html

These have some helpful info too.

http://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vi...not-happy.html

http://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vi...ige-shift.html

http://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vi...i-looking.html


A Simplex SX410 or SX610 would be a good choice. They work well and are still available at reasonable prices. You can even find them badged Peugeot. They are heavier than the SLJ derailleurs but they're more robust and actually shift better

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=490548 http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=490549

If you go this route make sure to get a direct mount version, not one with a "claw mount"...

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=490555 http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=490556


Hope this helps.

verktyg :50:

Chas.

Chombi,

Simplex started using springs in the upper pivot since the 1961 Export 61 model. The sprung upper pivots were why Simplex derailleurs worked better than Campy's.

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=490567

BTW, do you live in the Bay Area?


verktyg :50:

Chas.

someone on my gitane TdF ( pretty much the same bike ) put a shimano SIS system on there, been working just fine.

yep, no problem, just need to tap the 9mm mounting hole to 10mm x 1mm.

verktyg :50:

Chas.

Thanks. I googled all afternoon but so many folks tap and modify the dropouts without mentioning it. I couldn't be sure.

There is a way to do it without tapping out the hole in the Simplex dropout.
But it requires a pretty serious work-around...for someone with way too much time on his hands. ;)

http://i1227.photobucket.com/albums/...x/newbolt4.jpg

Definitely interesting thread for me. I will soon be in receipt of a late 60s PX-10 frame which I believe has been tapped 10x1. Parts swap from another PX-10 to follow. My understanding is that the existing Simplex derailleur will still work, but the tapping gives me some alternatives as well.

Ah what price vanity? Why anyone would want to switch from something that worked to a 1951 design (Nuovo Record) is beyond me??? :roflmao2:

Until the late 80's even the cheap Simplex Prestige Delrin plastic rear derailleurs shifted better than any Campy short arm RD!

Peugeot prided themselves as ALL FRENCH! Any of the metal Simplex derailleurs from the 70's and 80's will work great and fit Simplex dropouts without any changes!!!

The drop parallelogram Simplex RDs work as well as anything Suntour or Shimano made during that era!

Non sono un adoratore di Campagnolo

verktyg :50:

Chas.

well. I guess that puts me in my place



http://i1227.photobucket.com/albums/...psznbiqw5v.png

Ha, ha, ha.... :roflmao:

Non sono un adoratore di Campagnolo

On the other hand, is it wrong, or just French?

verktyg :50:

Chas.

I have a 1st generation Campagnolo Rally on my PX10. All that was required was to run a 10 X 1 tap through the Simplex hanger. The Rally is top sprung like a Simplex. They're not the best shifting, but they get the job done and I've always liked the way they look.

Yes, we now know that you don't worship Campagnolo. You've stated it. Twice.
I don't either, really.

Though I was loath to respond to post # 12, which I considered somewhat pejorative and even a bit superior in tone... I think a short rebuttal is in order.
Despite the risk of hi-jacking the thread.

If you think the reason I went to all the trouble of doing that project was out of vanity, Chas, boy, do you miss the point. I suppose I may have preferred Campagnolo Record components at one time in my life out of vanity, that was a long time ago. I like them now because I think they were, overall, the best component group ever made. The best shifting? Nah. If that was my only criteria I would have Suntour derailleurs on all my bikes. To me, though, there's more to the allure than that.

I do still have the original Simplex Criterium derailleurs that came on my Gitane. But the plastic in them is now 44 years old and I'd prefer to keep them in the good condition they are now in. I may sell that bike some day and if I do, I'd like it to be original. I only have one Simplex rear. I have many Nuovo Record derailleurs. Record derailleurs don't break like Delrin Simplex do.

But the main reason I did that Simplex dropout to "standard mount" derailleur was just to see if I could. While I realize that just tapping out the hole in a Simplex dropout to accept a standard mount derailleur is a quick and easy way to use another derailleur, I didn't want to do that to my frame. Others don't mind it, I know. That's their choice. But I consider doing so as forever altering a vintage French frame. Not as radical as hacking off the hanger to mount a claw, for sure, but still an alteration of a classic frame, which I personally find just a bit sad.

Of course, the custom mounting bolt method is not for everyone. Nor is it meant to be. I just did it for my own sense of satisfaction. It's highly impractical.
But I knew that going into it and that's OK with me.

The Delrin Simplex derailleurs aren't nearly as fragile as you would think. I rode a PX10 stock with them as my commute bike for a couple years. This was about 16 miles/day, plus I'd take it for occasional weekend 50 mile type rides. They were still working fine when i gifted the bike away. I'd be inclined to just ride it for a while and see how it goes. Granted this was ~ 20 years ago, and that plastic is twice as old now.

Obviously if you abuse them by shifting 3 cogs at once while under pressure up hill etc, they will break eventually. If you're the type of person that regularly breaks stuff, perhaps you should swap them out now. OTOH, if you're not a basher, give 'em a try.

It's really the front ones that are more inclined to give up the ghost. They work fine till the front mounting bracket piece fractures.

Now that we know Campy derailleurs suck, send them all to me. Same with those awful Simplex derailleurs. Especially the ones that are about to break at any moment.

I don't think I've ever seen a broken Simplex Delrin RD. The fronts are a different story.

Super glue.

That's a good point. Don't believe I've ever seen a broken rear either. Their pulleys do break though, and they're kind of hard to find.
But then, Campy pulleys break too. But I have spares of those.
I think the Simplex Criterium shifts pretty well. Better than the Prestige, IMO. The addition of the metal side plates helped, IMO.
But I didn't find it shifted any better than the Nuovo Record rear. Again..... IMO
Which hardly counts for much.

I also think the motivation for bashing Campagnolo N. Record rear derailleurs is ...em...suspect.
If it makes someone feel good to do it, though, you go.

I don't like the way the NR RD shifts. That's why mine is in a drawer. I thought that they're on all of the best bikes and they cost the most, so they must be the best. They may be the best quality, but they are certainly not the best shifting.

That being said, I think that Rootboy's conversion is just about the coolest thing I've seen on these pages.

I guess some apologies are in order. It's very easy for tongue and cheek banter to get misconstrued on the web.

[MENTION=29368]rootboy[/MENTION] I've seen your conversion in several threads before and I was impressed with your ingenuity and the quality of workmanship. Wish something like that would have been around in the 70's when we upgraded a number of customer's TdFs to Campy derailleurs. Back then no one gave much thought to preserving the integrity of Simplex dropouts on French bikes.

Most TdF customers wanted to get rid of their "plastic" Simplex derailleurs. If they could afford them, they switched to Campy NR. If not, it was Suntour V rear derailleurs. We obliged them by doing a neatly done job modifying their Simplex rear dropouts.

That was before Simplex SLJ derailleurs were readily available. We started importing them in 1975 but they were a hard sell because the RDs sold for ~$60 and the complete set of derailleurs with levers went for ~$100. At that time Campy NR derailleurs retailed for $29 to $35. Suntour V RDs sold for $6 to $7... Campy FDs were always great!

[MENTION=27118]Grand Bois[/MENTION] I got my first all Campy bike in 1973. It was a 1971 Gitane Tour de France. I bought it from the first bike shop that I worked at for $150 during a clearance sale. I kept that bike in my bedroom and sometimes I'd sit and admire the beauty of the satin finish on the Campy components. They were pieces of art.

In 1975 I received 2 sets of Suntour Cyclone derailleurs from the first shipment to hit the US. I switched out my NR derailleurs and never went back to using Campy derailleurs until 2006 when I started riding and collecting road bikes again. I have about half a dozen Campy NR and SR equipped bikes in my collection.

During the 70's I was in a position to check out just about any performance component on the market. What bothered me (and still does) was the attitudes of many Campy aficionados who looked down their noses at any other brands. That carried over to non-Italian bikes too.

I'm getting long in the tooth and I'm trying to share my knowledge and experiences while I can still remember...

So apologies to all for any offenses.

verktyg :50:

Chas.

I remember and understand the Campagnolo snobbery, as well as the anti Campagnolo snobbery. I started off with the latter, until I destroyed most of a gruppo of Dura Ace EX, just with mileage (lots). After that I began to appreciate the hardiness -- and serviceability -- of campy stuff. Back in the 80s it was expensive, but still fairly priced. My own feeling on it is that the company died with Tullio. The new stuff might be fine, but it's just a name.

Anyhow, IME the Simplex Criteriums shift about the same as Nuovo Record, better than early Dura Ace, and not as good as Suntour cyclone/superbe. Chain and freewheel probably make about as much difference as the derailleurs. Good set up is important also.

Superbe used to sell for about the same price as Campy, IIRC, and service parts were harder to come by.

Chas. Thanks. No harm no foul. It was only the use of the "V" word I had some objection to. Just a tad personal.
I always find your posts very helpful and full of good information.

RB