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Project tooth pick

Old 02-02-16, 08:48 AM
  #1  
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Project tooth pick

So my second frame is finished and painted and 90% built. Still waiting on my bars to arrive and then it'll be road ready. So this is something that has been on the back of my mind for quite some time. It's one of those "hmm it'd be really cool to try this" but just kept pushing it off. Well we were at Home Depot and the urge came and decided to go for it. I figured if I fell over dead tomorrow who would ever know about my hair brain idea? We you see quite a few builders that build wood frames but normally they're laminated with the inner sections hollow for weight.

Well I'm not looking to compete with carbon frames and want a normal looking frame. The laminated frames normally have a very curvaceous almost standard carbon frame shape. When I took my framebuilding course I was talking to my instructor Doug (Fattic) about his thoughts on Bamboo and he had a very positive view on them. So with the use of normal hardwood Oak dowels for frame tubes I would attach them the same way bamboo frames are done. So I picked up both hemp bast fiber and carbon tow to try out and West Systems resin/hardner to build a couple of frames to try out. I figure the worst I get is a noodly frame as they joints will hold fine. Plus have Oak is pretty strong...not the strongest as I may try a hickory frame later but I don't want to drop too much on a bonfire frame.



Then I bought all my standard braze ons from Nova Cycles. All the stops were rivet on styles so they'll get two types of attachment. They'll be epoxied and screwed which I believe will be good and secure. If not there's alway zip ties. Haha.

Now there was the issue with a seatpost. Since the dowels are closer to standard tube sizes and reaming out and sliding in a piece of seat tube wouldn't be ideal. I would the route of some higher end carbon frames. I would extend the seat tube dowel and do a seat mast setup and use a old carbon seatpost. Then just taper the dowel down on a lathe so I can slide the seatpost over that.



So I treated myself to a gift this weekend and bought myself a 40" wood lathe and some chisels and made some chips last night!

Sorry the photo is so hazy. Drew this up last night. Since my laptop is having issues getting Bikecad to work. I completely forgot about Rattlecad but still like a working with paper and pencil as I can physically see things laid out and drop an existing frame over it to compare things.



The rough cut the dowels and luckily I have enough to build another frame with the left over pieces! Double score!



The head tube is for a 1-1/8" setup but since I have more 1" parts I bought some headtube adapters to run a 1" headset. Pretty cool to have a frame that you can use both oversized threadless or 1" threaded. Then just a standard 68mm chromoly BB shell.

Specs of the frame
-Head tube 69 degrees
-Seat tube 74 degrees
-Top tube 52.5cm (yes it has a sloping top tube...sorry)
-Chainstay length 43cm
-BB drop 70mm

The cantilever mounts on my old Cannondale will be used as the frame is no longer road worthy. I could of used to head tube and BB shell but didn't want to cut and grind off the leftover tubing.

So I know this should probably be in the Framebuilding forum but quite honestly I don't always get the most positive feedback and vibe from there. Plus this place is like Cheers were everybody know's each others name and just better overall vibe. Plus it'll have downtube shifters and mostly vintage parts. It'll be almost full Suntour Superbe Pro in black/gold and the frame will be stained Ebony black.

Well this is as far as I got and update as I go.
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Old 02-02-16, 09:01 AM
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Will be watching this project. Very interesting
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Old 02-02-16, 09:06 AM
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Interesting irony that you post this on Woodchuck Day.

Have you seen the Renovo? I saw one out on the road at a water stop. This guy was just giddy about it and was training for a across-the-country tour.
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Old 02-02-16, 09:07 AM
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hwacky man!

If this works as a prototype, id suggest looking into other dowels than standard oak: you can get things like purple heartwood laminated dowels that are already hollow (for pool cues) that would be way stronger - and also look amazing.
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Old 02-02-16, 09:19 AM
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Wow...thanks for putting here Henry...would not have seen it in the Framebuilders area...and am anxious to see more!!!
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Old 02-02-16, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by jetboy View Post
hwacky man!

If this works as a prototype, id suggest looking into other dowels than standard oak: you can get things like purple heartwood laminated dowels that are already hollow (for pool cues) that would be way stronger - and also look amazing.
I'll look into this as I'm not normally a wood person. I went to school for metal fabrication but enjoy wood more and more.
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Old 02-02-16, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Henry III View Post
I'll look into this as I'm not normally a wood person. I went to school for metal fabrication but enjoy wood more and more.
Where do you find the time in a day for this stuff?? Oh yeah, you're young...

As mentioned, glued/lam wood will give you the best results, preventing warping and adding strength. Well seasoned, quarter-cut white oak would also serve you better but this is a proto after all. The metal-to-wood joints will be a big challenge. Look forward to seeing this happen.
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Old 02-02-16, 10:42 AM
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I would suggest that with a 40' lathe, you could laminate some blanks and turn much stronger (safer) laminted dowels then the solid oak dowels. Since they are a single piece of wood they will fail with the grain and when broken basically become spear tips.



future craziness would be to build hollow tubes (almost like fly rod building)

or buy them Woodworker.com: Optimizephrase If
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Old 02-02-16, 10:43 AM
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I'd second the vote for hickory if you can find it in the large diameter dowels, or possibly ash...this will be FUN! (maybe even somewhat successful, but not holding my breath).
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Old 02-02-16, 11:08 AM
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This will be fun, can't wait to see how it comes out.
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Old 02-02-16, 11:50 AM
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I looked into hickory but it's something I would have to purchase online since I couldn't find any place locally. Plus since larger diameter dowels are harder to find in decent hardwood from my searching.

Like I said I'm not trying to out beat the commonly used material and just don't like the look of current wood frames as they have a very heavy look to them. So we'll see and it fails then we'll have S'mores afterwards.
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Old 02-02-16, 11:56 AM
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Old 02-02-16, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Henry III View Post
I looked into hickory but it's something I would have to purchase online since I couldn't find any place locally. Plus since larger diameter dowels are harder to find in decent hardwood from my searching.

Like I said I'm not trying to out beat the commonly used material and just don't like the look of current wood frames as they have a very heavy look to them. So we'll see and it fails then we'll have S'mores afterwards.
Henry, to repeat/expand on a previous post a little more clearly, I think using what your are doing for prototyping is ok....but that the classic oak dowel is a risky material for any significant riding, primarily due to its failure mode. it will fail with the grain and it will fail catastrophically, with nice spearpoint ends.....which could be an issue for a seat post fail and potential subsequent impalement.

you could minimize this by doing a full carbon or fiberglass wrap. you could do fiberglass and then a finish coat like on a surfboard and still see the wood.

it seems a shame to do the work this will take and it not be as long lasting as one would hope for

you could laminate and turn your own. basic over simplified steps: get hardwood, rip it to strips, glue strips together into square blank, turn round. more detail would be like using a very fine saw blade or planing pieces, making sure strips are flipflopped on grain pattern and using two type of wood for strength and aesthetics

Atlas Billiard Supplies - Laminated

In any direction you go.....kudos to you for experimenting and being creative....I will watch this thread with interest
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Old 02-02-16, 01:03 PM
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Sorry I forgot to mention that the seat tube will be wrapped in carbon. So from the seat cluster area to the top will be fully wrapped. A jagged seat tube wouldn't feel too good. Made me picture the guy who had a piece of rebar going through his skull and lived.
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Old 02-02-16, 01:52 PM
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Henry, you're absolutely nuts. I like it.

Although, when I do this, I'm thinking more along the lines of mostly plywood framed bike, with chunkier hollow box sections or bent and laminated trusses rather than solid 1-piece tubes. It'll be (at least in theory) a little heavier but way more rigid.
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Old 02-02-16, 03:36 PM
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Who will be the first to 3D print their frame? Was reading about a guy who plans to print a car in the next couple of years.
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Old 02-02-16, 11:53 PM
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remember the guy who was prototyping a cardboard (corrugated board with resin coating) frame a few years back? Nothing but *crickets* since then...he thought the price would reach (down) to around $60 when production ramped up...sorry for the little hi-jack
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Old 02-03-16, 05:58 AM
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Just to throw a quick possible curve ball your way, which you can ignore or ponder:

Instead of the metal BB shell, make an over-sized one out of a block made from wood pieces, glued as @squirtdad mentions above. Holes could be bored for the tubes, stays, and BB.

The size of the BB hole would depend on the type of BB and cranks used. At the minimum bore it to one piece cranks size and use a Euro Adapter.

When all the holes are bored correctly then shape and smooth the BB shell to finish.

This would also allow you to securely glue and even pin each tube/stay in place. Something similar could be done at the head tube.

Just 2 cents from an excited observer. Henry, keep the creativity flowing!
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Old 02-03-16, 06:35 AM
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Now if I could only get the old chuck off my drill so I could use my tube notcher. I picked up a larger 1/2" chuck but the old one is putting up a good fight and holding me back from mitering the dowels. Errrr....
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Old 02-03-16, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Henry III View Post
I looked into hickory but it's something I would have to purchase online since I couldn't find any place locally. Plus since larger diameter dowels are harder to find in decent hardwood from my searching.

Like I said I'm not trying to out beat the commonly used material and just don't like the look of current wood frames as they have a very heavy look to them. So we'll see and it fails then we'll have S'mores afterwards.

I totally get what you are doing. I have not built a frame but when out of my element or wanting to learn, I tend to do things like this. I have tried many prototypes for many things for the learning process without having to commit to actually liking the end product or investing too much. I am one of those that have to stay busy and part is enjoying the ride...and then maybe the ride.
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Old 02-03-16, 04:29 PM
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Very interested to see how this turns out. No matter what it should be fun, and my guess is it will be a very pretty bike as well.
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Old 02-03-16, 06:35 PM
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Well it was a sad day. I've been fighting with my drill to put my new 1/2" chuck on and had to completely disassemble my drill to get the chuck off. Destroying the old one in removing it and then discovering the new chuck won't fit. I've had this cheap old corded Black and Decker for like fifteen years.

So I bought a new corded Black and Decker with 1/2" chuck today and cut the miter on the seat and down tube for the BB shell. I have to clear off my frame jig table as its become that place in my shed much like that end table in your house where all junk collects.
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Old 02-04-16, 06:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Henry III View Post
Well it was a sad day. I've been fighting with my drill to put my new 1/2" chuck on and had to completely disassemble my drill to get the chuck off. Destroying the old one in removing it and then discovering the new chuck won't fit. I've had this cheap old corded Black and Decker for like fifteen years.

So I bought a new corded Black and Decker with 1/2" chuck today and cut the miter on the seat and down tube for the BB shell. I have to clear off my frame jig table as its become that place in my shed much like that end table in your house where all junk collects.
Giving up an old friend is never easy...but...hey...new tool! A new tool is always a good thing, right??
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Old 02-04-16, 07:29 AM
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Great project Henry! Thanks for sharing.
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Old 02-04-16, 07:46 AM
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looking forward to this
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