What does NGC stand for, Clubman?

Sorry, NGS, Nuovo Gran Sport

Ah, yes. I don't think that seller, who we all know is crazier than a poophouse rat , is trying to pass off a NGS for a true Gran Sport, which was a completely different derailleur entirely, featuring a push rod design, etc.

Now, what follows is not meant in any way to say "I'm right and you who disagree are wrong...neener, neener , neener..." , but only to try to clear up what may be a question that is incapable of being cleared up...and to try to convince, myself and my known feeble memory that there was indeed a Record front changer with a CSPC lip and no holes in the cage plate.

For the record, so to speak, I don't buy the contention that Bianchi would put a Nuovo Record rear on the bike I had...(Nuova Racing?) ...and a N. Gran Sport on the front.

But I would love to see a "less well finished" and "spindley-er" NGS arm forging, just to see,

Anyway, So I asked the "experts" over on the Classic rendezvous list this morning, and here are a few responses, Linked, as well as copied and pasted as I think a direct link may not be readable by those who mat not be members.

https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=...es/VhXQOLF4mH8

"This is on my 1978 Merz touring bike, and is the Record version. I did not think this was so uncommon. This bike is a time machine, except for the fenders and tires is exactly how it came out of my shop."

Jim Merz

Jim shows two pics of his 78 Merz touring bike outfitted with a no-hole, lipped Record front derailleur. Which I cannot seem to paste here without adding to my photo hosting site, etc.

And this from Doug Charles;
"My 1980 Bianchi Rekord 748 came new with one and a NR rear. I was told at the time that the difference was only in the finish. I specifically asked upon delivery when it arrived new as I thought it was wrong and had been swapped out. The dealer may have been feeding me a line and had swapped it out, but I was a naive college kid and believed him."
Doug Charles

And this, from a private email response from Billy Ketchum;

"The NGS f. der. was not as well finished as the R/NR and had spindlier arm w/ a greater throw...."

Which I think is an important clue.

Of course, none of this is absolute and conclusive. And I don't mean to imply that I believe the "experts" over on the CR list are any more knowledgable than the "experts" here.

But, based on a little more input, such as Kevin Sayles' generation chart, as well as a few more statements from folks far more knowledgeable than me, that there was indeed a version of the Record front changer with no holes in the plate and with the front lip. Of course, the Campagnolo catalogs 17 and 18 are not much help as there is a considerable gap between the two. My Catalog 17A shows the N. Gran Sport front as still being the push rod type, and my catalog 18 shows the no hole front plate NGS, but the Record sporting 3 holes. The catalog 18 is, however, circa mid 80's I think.

So, to further beat this horse, I believe that during the gap in the catalogs, that Campagnolo, force by the CSPC, changed the Record front to have a flat front plate, like its predecessor, but with the added lip, and only added the 3 holes to the front plate sometime later, perhaps 1981 or 82.

And, based on looking at the pics in the OP's first post again, and closer examination of the finish and shape of the arm forgings, I'm still maintaining that it is a Record front derailleur.

But I only add all of this in hopes of salvaging a) , a small modicum of my sanity and, b), in hopes of lessening my chagrin. But it's probably too late for either.... :>

My '77 Colnago Super has a NR with flat plate and no holes, does have the Campy winged wheel logo.

And there's another variation which is interesting. Did one model have the globe logo and one the winged wheel logo?

OK. Finally found some pics, poor ones, of what I think of as the Nuovo Gran Sport version of the flat cage, lipped front changer.
Notice the difference in the cage actuating arm. Not at all like the pics of the OP's derailleur.

Now things are gettin' fugly

Shimano's been dissed for constant tweaking of their designs over the last few decades but they're obviously not the only culprits. Campy just didn't broadcast it.

Interesting thread.

Which model line is this, it's the one on my Colnago that I posted about but had the stamped logo incorrect. Here ya's go....

[IMG][/IMG]

That's Record. Pre- lip.

Cool. Thanx!

I think.....

OK, then here's one more, the pre lip, crap casting, World logo with a chrome finish on the outer plate and a few bolts. It also has that weird arm twist at the clamping bolt. Anymore or has this been covered? Edit. It must be the 74-77 version of the post 78 velobase example below.

Velobase again (although the 'bend seems less bent')

That looks quite a lot like a Nuovo Valentino.

Cripes, I think you're right, Jiangshi. Ok...I'm back to being confused..... :<

It doesn't make any difference, anyway.

Boxes help. So here's the pre cpsc NGS. Very similar to Record, just the finish and black bits I'd say.

Very Interesting. I need to read page 2 still so will edit as necessary once I do, I see it is suggested that there was a year (1978) with no holes and a lip. I take it with a grain of salt though to be honest until I see unequivocal proof that record existed as such for one year in 1978.

is that a NGS box for sure? That is an interesting data point, the only thing that could distinguish it is the finish. All the record derailleurs had black limit screws prior to 1978.

Edit: Further analysis below leads me to believe that this is a record changer, pre CPSC changes.

Also, catalog 17A supplement c. 1979 shows the "Record" changer as having holes and the NGS is exactly as the unit in the OP. So, we have a possible change over in 1978 where there was a lip but no holes. Holes were there by 1979. I'd have to spend some time looking at finishes and arms with the units in hand, but I'm not totally convinced there was a record with lip and no holes model. Not yet, but I might change my mind.

OK yous guys. Stop trying to confuse me further. I do an excellent job of that myself. ;>

I just looked at my catalog 17A and it clearly shows NO HOLES in the Record front plate.
And there is no "NGS" gear shown in 17A. Only what they call "Sport", with the old push rod design front der.

That pic above of the yellow box is Record.....to me. As is the gizmo sitting on top of it.
Didn't Gran Sport come in green boxes?

Au contraire, mon frere',

This kind of meaningless minutiae is important stuff !

First, I must apologize as I was referring to the 17A supplement c.1979. I left the supplement part off, I over looked that and have contributed to the confusion.


Okay, so that is definitely a record changer in the pic above. All is right in the world.

I started the thread to help me identify these gears in order to source the correct front mech for my '70 Cinelli, currently sporting a push rod Valentino. The original NGS (?) mech I posted was given to me and I knew it was post-77 Still, I was confused as to which gear would be correct for the Model B and how to identify them, witness the NOS gears shown online with their suspect boxes. If you look at the Velobase list of Campy front gears, there is a dead zone in the production of front mechs for that year. VeloBase.com - Component Listing

The production of some gears end before 1970, others start after, some have no end dates. Now that the gears are almost fully scrutinized what say ye? @juvela suggested the 1st or second gen Record might be the way to go, but I don't need the cable stop. Opinions welcome. Anyone have Catalog 16 form '69? Never mind, found it.

If you want to replace it with record you would want what is referred to as 4th generation in the link provided by rootboy originally. Which apparently (according to the link) ran from about 1967 to 1970/71, which goes with my recollection. I will note that these is variation within this generation. The earliest ones had the long piece where the cable stop would have been but just the stop was removed and the later ones did not have the long part of the body anymore. Either variation would be okay, IMHO. I used to have several but only have one now.

Campagnolo front changers

Just to make it even more confusing, have a look at Hi Campy's site.

https://hicampy.bizmw.com/profile1033.html

Mistery Version: There are totally bizzare things like a cable stop model with the later 1970s reinforced body, did campy make one special for that cable configuration in the 1970s?

Version 6th: a chrome bronze arm version without the cable stop?

Version 7th: He calls early 1970s but it is the version that I believe to be c.1968-1970 and the correct one for clubman's bike. And the one that Classic Lightweights UK link states as being introduced in 1967.

Pandoras Box of Campy. Thanks!