Tom, that's the clearest and most concise statement of what I've been trying to say for some time.

+1 - Cycling is a wide open field. so to speak. big enough for everyone.

One of the folks who advised me away from 650b was G. Petersen. The Atlantis and Hunquapilar are not offered (as standard) in frame sizes above 59cm, per www.rivbike.com

It is a widely held opinion that rando and off-road riding are best applications for 650b. My guess is that most 650b roadies are enjoying the cloudlike ride. And that's OK, it's my EM on 28 tubies on smooth pavement.

Those are valid points. Much of the neo retro rando revival has at least as much to do with style as function. By contrast the original constructeurs were pushing the edge technically as well as artistically.

The way I see it, some of the old ideas were better, and some of them were worse. Slotted cleats? good riddance. Steel tube frames? Great ride and last forever. Going to OS takes advantage of modern HT steel. Low spoke count wheels? Yes and no. Aero and light, but higher spoke count wheels will get you home if you break a spoke. Etc, etc.

Anyhow, no doubt any framebuilder will build you a bike like you want. I don't know of a stock frame with those specs, but there might be.

Sprint, crit race, high speed canyon carver, speed junkie = 700c
Covers rougher surface / terrain, comfort seeker = 650b

Whats your body telling you?

They're two separate things, but interesect on the same rider type quite often.

Low trail is extremely helpful for those who like to carry things up front. For people riding competitively, it's a disadvantage, working against those that want to make a sudden move, epitomized in criterium racing.

Thanks, Tom. I was about to post something similar.

Ever since I joined this forum I have been wondering what the 650B buzz was about, and whether I need a 650B bike. I have been following threads like these with some interest. My observations so far:

• smaller wheels have merit on a small frame, from a toe overlap perspective
• smaller wheels enable wider tires on any given frame
• wider tires are more comfortable, which is useful on longer rides
• small wheels look awkward on a large frame
• there are many frames available that will accommodate wide tires on 700c wheels

I've tried the wide tire bit, with 37mm tires on 700C rims:

https://myalbum.com/photo/03vP32fg1K6u/1k0.jpg

My findings, based on this experience:

• definitely more comfortable (tested on cobblestones)
• steering feels less sharp

The bike is currently shod with 30mm Challenge Strada Biancas, which I find a nice compromise for the type of riding I do:

https://myalbum.com/photo/brnwsQIcNGHE/1k0.jpg

My conclusion: no reason for smaller wheels on a large frame with enough clearance. Still, I'd like an excuse to build me a 650B bike, so please feel free to convince me. :)

You can thank them Frenchies. But you won't see fatties wallowing in the TdF :D

Rider fatigue arguments are also made for the 'beam' bikes. They were mostly stuck on 650A wheels/tires @ 20mm, 140 psi. They also tried suspension forks for cobblestone racers, but that didn't fly either. Thudbuster posts on roadies? Zertz inserts? Newer CF frame designs?

With excessive (ooppps, duck) comfort, comes some penalty. :o Weight, rolling resistance, aerodynamics - each of which mean little to a rando rider or off-roader - are the enemies of the most efficient forward conveyance.

Hey, my tubulars are all going wider. Maybe to 30mm on some. I rode Cino Heroica on 33 nobbies. I get the comfort thing too at 65 yo. :thumb:

Another point I forgot to mention is age. As an experienced rider gets older, top speed might decrease, but endurance might increase or at least stay the same. We might prefer a different kind of riding, and fatter tires are good for that kind of riding.

Thanks, [MENTION=381793]gugie[/MENTION]. I'm an IT person at work, and I like to turn technical specs into English. Some of my proudest moments are of explaining things, sometimes to kids or octogenarians. I'm thinking of a career change, and I'm thinking I might like to teach middle school.

What I'm not getting is why Bandera would post a complaint about aluminum, not carbon rims, in the C&V forum where he normally posts screeds in praise of his steel, not carbon frames.

How about 16" wheels for low rotational inertia?

http://www.moultonbicycles.co.uk/images/Tom_Simpson.gif

Also, I forgot about it till just now, but there was a mini trend in the early 90s for 650C wheels for road bikes. The idea was that smaller wheels were more aero, lighter and stronger. Same idea as Moulton, but not so small that suspension was needed.

This thread looks interesting. I'll have to go back and read it when I have a lot of free time.

In the meantime, an alternative to the A23 (which I think is pretty darn light as aluminum clincher rims go):

https://www.universalcycles.com/shop...&category=4176

I haven't seen a weight listed. The 700c Belgium C2s have a list weight about the same as the 700c A23 and unlike the A23's I've had the C2s I've had were as light as they claimed to be. The Belgium Plus, as I recall, is about 20 grams heavier than the A23 and so, IME, likely to weigh about the same as an A23.

Also, the rim linked above is available in a weight weenie approved 28 hole drilling. It's wider than the A23, which is especially good for 650B style wide tires. Like the A23, it's tubeless ready. The C&V downside is it's not silver.

That's a reasonable simpification based on average range of rider size.

If we're talking about outliers, very short riders would benefit from smaller wheel sizes. On the other side of the bell curve, I just built a frame for a buddy that's 6'6" around 700c x 44mm tires + fenders. You have to design the forks and stays to allow for that, a tall rider allows everything to scale appropriately.

Frame design for carrying loads is a whole subject unto itself with no absolutes.
Again in larger frame sizes (60+cm, for sake of argument) carrying light to moderate loads, lowering BB, relaxed angles, etc can minimize the need for slack handling when riding unloaded. It's the balance in frame design - matching geometries to rider needs. Full-on tourer/rando all the way to full on racer and everything in betwixt. Artistry in the hands of 2 people wanting a good result. I've had a semi-custom ('Please ease the HTA') and 2 full customs, each a different builder, and it's GREAT to try to hit the intended 'nail on the head' with a learned stranger.

And getting it right on a tandem is more than 2X the work when the significant other is involved.;)

Ah, but the trend has been to go wider. I'm not so sure that they're done yet...

Well, this one checks at least a couple of your boxes: Reynolds 853 frameset, suitable geometry, 650B x 38mm tires. I did have to dimple the chain stays, but not big deal as the used frame cost me $100 (which included headset, bars, and seat post, which I sold off for about $60, so I'm just $40 into the frame):

https://c7.staticflickr.com/6/5330/2...991fe2b3_z.jpgIMG_0214.JPG

My remembrance of riding tubulars is that, size for size, they're more comfortable. Perhaps this was due to more supple casings?

I think [MENTION=335281]Bandera[/MENTION] gets some kind of door prize for this thread. He raised the idea of a 650b wheelset in Post no. 1 , trashed it in Post no.3 (quick turn around btw), and we're at 3 pages and counting of argument. Plus the OP is still busy plugging away trashing his own thread! This is BF at its finest. :thumb:

Well, I understood the question to be "how long will it be until we can buy modern super lightweight wheels in 650b size? To answer which, well, I don't think any of us knows, but we're willing to speculate.
https://goo.gl/images/BOmn58

Image help for Rudi:

http://imgc-cn.artprintimages.com/im...er-cartoon.jpg

VeloFlex 28mm 320tpi make for very mellow pavement riding. At 90psi in front/95 rear my 200# body loves it.

I'm looking to go to Schwalbe S-One 30mm (see my thread) for conditions off-road that don't call for knobbies but where 28mm seems narrow for any sand or soft surfaces or where I 'Go Fast on Forest Service Roads with Gravity Assist". Also seeking 30ish mm tubular recommendations, without knobs (need clearance in case of muddy)

As long as it's done with civility & some decorum, the old man approves.

Looks like he's ready to throw apples at someone.

Actually, maple leafs (?) and those single wing pod-flyers = straight into my rooftop gutters.

I don't quite follow. Since the outer diameter of a 650B rim with a 42mm tire is the same as a 700c with a 23mm tire (292mm radius+42mm tire=334mm, vs =311mm radius + 23mm tire = 334mm), then there is no difference in toe overlap, or BB drop, or any change in the trail or other ride characteristics in terms of overall wheel radius.