Freewheel / hub compatibility
 

Hi everyone

I'd really appreciate your help with this if possible. I have recently bought myself a vintage Motobecane Special Sport to restore and ride. I'm looking to replace the tubular wheel rims with clinchers. I have removed the freewheel and have my eye on a wheelset on eBay to put on. From what gather online, different countries had slightly different screw threads on the hubs however so I wanted to check if they would be compatible. The details are:

Old hub: Normandy Luxe Competition (made in France)

Freewheel: Cyclo 64 (made in France)

New hub: Maillard (made in France)

If needed, I'll see if I can add pictures on here.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Adam

Adam,

Welcome to BF and C&V.

Unfortunately it can be very difficult to know what the threading is from your original description. Sometimes French made parts and bikes imported directly into the US came with ISO or British threading. Other times they came with French threading. Sometimes the parts are marked with a code which reveals the threading, other times they are not.

Pictures can be helpful. Look on the back of the freewheel for any symbol marks or writing. Also check the hub, usually just between the threads and the flange on the drive side.

Best of luck and we look forward to seeing your bike.

Yes, FW threads did come in several varieties, French, Italian, English. Most are English. Italian has the same thread pitch and diameter but a slightly different angle on the thread profile. You can use Italian or English on any Italian or English hub but it is best not to go back and forth. French threads will not fit either.

A Maillard hub may or may not have had French threads, as many were made for other markets. Also for a while they had they own system called Heliomatic, or so I understand. I know nothing about it except what I've read here in BF but I understand they can be problematic. I don't know if the difference was in the threads or in how the sprockets were attached.

Anyway, your best bet is to find out from the seller what threads it has. If it is Heliomatic I'd probably look elsewhere though I'm sure someone here would know more. If you like those wheels but the FW threads are different, you can find FWs easily and cheaply enough. But you gotta' ask.

An easy test for thread type is to remove the freewheel and try a bottom bracket lockring of known thread type on the hub threads. An English thread lockring will not thread onto a metric thread hub, but should easily thread onto an ISO/English thread hub.

Helicomatic hubs used a proprietary thread pattern. The design was actually quite clever (similar to modern freehubs) but the execution was problematic. They used small bearings that proved to wear quickly and require more frequent service than most people were willing or accustomed to providing. But Adam states his bike has a Cyclo 64 freewheel, which means it is not a Helicomatic hub or freewheel:

Hi guys

Thank you so much for your help, that's been very useful. I've also heard back from the gent selling the wheels and the hub is actually ISO threaded. I've checked my FW and sadly there are no other markings on it. I'll take it to a bike shop in the morning in the hope they can advise what thread it is before I buy the wheels. As you say, I could still buy them all the same and source a replacement FW. You know what it's like though; I'm trying to keep as many original components as possible. I looked into buying some clincher rims and having the wheels rebuilt but I can't afford that sadly. I'll keep you posted.

Thanks again

Adam

True enough, and likely a metric, i.e. French, FW, especially with a Normandy Luxe Competition hub. But the "New hub" he was considering is Maillard. Which means there are two unknowns, with one unknown more unknown than the other.

I wouldn't worry about keeping the FW original, as they become consumables in the long run. However the rims will clearly not be original once you switch to clinchers. Which is to say, that's one area of "originality" that needn't stay on your chosen development path.

What rims are they? They, or even the complete wheels, might be worth something to some of us. And what is the rear spacing? 120mm? 126mm?

Just about all new freewheels will be ISO. So, having an ISO wheel/hub is a good thing.

If your freewheel doesn't match, there are plenty of cheap replacements (which may also shift better).

Based on the description your wheelset likely has a French threaded freewheel. I would leave the old wheelset intact with freewheel and buy a ISO freewheel for the new wheelset fairly nice new or vintage 5/6 speed freewheels can be found for $15-20 pretty easy if you keep an eye on the auctions on ebay you often times get nice vintage ones for only $10 or so.

I'd get a second opinion or check for yourself with the BB lock ring. I've have several LBS's tell me my Record HF BSC was ISO, also a (knowledgeable seller) at a swap meet told me there's no such thing as French Italian BSC or ISO and they're all the same. I put an ISO FW on an 80s Campagnolo low end BSC but that was my decision as I wasn't precious about originality.

The rims are Record and the rear spacing is 120mm.

Well, I took both the FW and wheel with hub to a Giant cycle store and had a chat with the mechanic there. He himself was a little stumped too. Visually comparing it against an ISO threaded FW from the shelf, the thread spacing on my FW looks marginally wider so we assumed it is French. He explained that Cyclo as a company have changed several times over the years and are currently manufacturing tools so searching on their website didn't help sadly. I think I'll return the FW to the hub and sell them on complete, then purchase an ISO freewheel when the replacement wheels arrive.
Thanks again everyone, you've been a great help.

Adam

I have a few Cyclo freewheels in my spares. Would you like for me to check to see if they are British/ISO threading? What is the range of the tooth count on your current Cyclo?

BTW, I find it amazing that your LBS mechanic even knew about Cyclo freewheels. That's a great find! Stay friendly with him!

That would be fantastic, thank you. I've counted the range and it is 16-20.

WOW! That's some tight racing range for back in the day! A 16-17-18-19-20 five speed corn cob!

Below is the "CYCLO 64" I restored a few years back. Obviously a wider range.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...psjt1inipx.jpg

I do have some other Cyclo freewheels around. I'll dig them out this weekend, take some pictures, and see if any are British/ISO or French threaded.

pastorbobnlnh, that's very kind. Thank you.

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Hello Adam,

Good to read you have it all well sorted. ;)

These Atom/Normandy/Maillard hubs are marked by the manufacturer with their thread specification.

If they have a groove in the area just outboard of right flange and just inboard of the threads they are BSC/ISO dimension. If this area is smooth/ungrooved they are metric/french threaded. This manufacturer does not offer italian thread.

All Schwinn Approved versions of these products are of course BSC/ISO.

Image of Normandy Sport metric/french threaded:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/stronglight/6054430354

Normandy Luxe Competition BSC/ISO dimension -

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2318/...9c72fe.jpg?v=0

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2372/...324341.jpg?v=0

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Thanks! That's a great tip to tell if it is French or ISO. I've had a look at the hub on the wheel I removed and there isn't much of a space at all between the thread and flange, certainly not enough for another groove. It's much like the French example you have given and smooth.

Great advice, thank you.

Looks like a standard two-prong Regina remover would fit that freewheel. Do you know if that's the case?

little off topic.... you might consider going tubular as an option. I have had good luck (in terms of durabilty) with using Tufo tires, tape and sealant. The durable ones I use are reported to be not the most supple, but I saw a bit difference over clinchers.

John, I checked and a Regina 2 prong remover is really sloppy. I also have a Cyclo 2-prong and the fit is very good.

Adam, so sorry this took a few days to post. I've been busy working on several freewheels for clients. I finally dug these out from where they have been waiting for restoration service. Both appear to be either ISO, British, or Italian threading.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...pstbnrxzw4.jpg

Thanks for checking. I have a Cyclo tool and a Regina tool, but no Cyclo freewheel for test fitting. They seemed similar enough that it might work.

http://www.os2.dhs.org/~john/cyclo1.jpg

Before and after pictures, just for the record. :)

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...psgg16csvt.jpg

These Cyclos with their reversed internals are really amazing. Because of the way the pawls are held in place on the outer body and the depth of the ratchet teeth on the inner body, each pawl makes a "CLICK-click" at each tooth when freewheeling. The second "click" is subtle, but it is there.