Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic & Vintage
Reload this Page >

Freewheel / hub compatibility

Notices
Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

Freewheel / hub compatibility

Old 02-22-17, 03:38 AM
  #1  
Adam Newsome
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Freewheel / hub compatibility

Hi everyone

I'd really appreciate your help with this if possible. I have recently bought myself a vintage Motobecane Special Sport to restore and ride. I'm looking to replace the tubular wheel rims with clinchers. I have removed the freewheel and have my eye on a wheelset on eBay to put on. From what gather online, different countries had slightly different screw threads on the hubs however so I wanted to check if they would be compatible. The details are:

Old hub: Normandy Luxe Competition (made in France)

Freewheel: Cyclo 64 (made in France)

New hub: Maillard (made in France)

If needed, I'll see if I can add pictures on here.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Adam
Adam Newsome is offline  
Old 02-22-17, 06:20 AM
  #2  
pastorbobnlnh 
Freewheel Medic
 
pastorbobnlnh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: NH Mountains NW of Concord & Mid-GA Coast!
Posts: 12,008

Bikes: Snazzy* Schwinns, Classy Cannondales, & a Lonely '83 Santana Tandem (* Ed.)

Mentioned: 108 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 884 Post(s)
Liked 660 Times in 368 Posts
Adam,

Welcome to BF and C&V.

Unfortunately it can be very difficult to know what the threading is from your original description. Sometimes French made parts and bikes imported directly into the US came with ISO or British threading. Other times they came with French threading. Sometimes the parts are marked with a code which reveals the threading, other times they are not.

Pictures can be helpful. Look on the back of the freewheel for any symbol marks or writing. Also check the hub, usually just between the threads and the flange on the drive side.

Best of luck and we look forward to seeing your bike.
__________________
Bob
Dreaming about riding in NH's summertime while enjoying the GA coast for the remainder of the year!

Thanks for visiting my website: www.freewheelspa.com




pastorbobnlnh is offline  
Old 02-22-17, 06:24 AM
  #3  
jimmuller 
What??? Only 2 wheels?
 
jimmuller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Boston-ish, MA
Posts: 13,401

Bikes: 73 Raleigh Carlton Gran Sport, 72 Peugeot UO-8, 82 Peugeot TH8, 87 Bianchi Brava, 76? Masi Grand Criterium, 87 Centurion Ironman Expert, 74 Motobecane Champion Team, 86 & 77 Gazelle champion mondial, 81? Grandis, 82? Tommasini, 83 Peugeot PF10

Mentioned: 186 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1212 Post(s)
Liked 489 Times in 192 Posts
Yes, FW threads did come in several varieties, French, Italian, English. Most are English. Italian has the same thread pitch and diameter but a slightly different angle on the thread profile. You can use Italian or English on any Italian or English hub but it is best not to go back and forth. French threads will not fit either.

A Maillard hub may or may not have had French threads, as many were made for other markets. Also for a while they had they own system called Heliomatic, or so I understand. I know nothing about it except what I've read here in BF but I understand they can be problematic. I don't know if the difference was in the threads or in how the sprockets were attached.

Anyway, your best bet is to find out from the seller what threads it has. If it is Heliomatic I'd probably look elsewhere though I'm sure someone here would know more. If you like those wheels but the FW threads are different, you can find FWs easily and cheaply enough. But you gotta' ask.
__________________
Real cyclists use toe clips.
With great bikes comes great responsibility.
jimmuller
jimmuller is offline  
Old 02-22-17, 08:27 AM
  #4  
JohnDThompson 
Old fart
 
JohnDThompson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Appleton WI
Posts: 23,483

Bikes: Several, mostly not name brands.

Mentioned: 136 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2937 Post(s)
Liked 1,949 Times in 1,166 Posts
Originally Posted by jimmuller View Post
Yes, FW threads did come in several varieties, French, Italian, English. Most are English. Italian has the same thread pitch and diameter but a slightly different angle on the thread profile. You can use Italian or English on any Italian or English hub but it is best not to go back and forth. French threads will not fit either. A Maillard hub may or may not have had French threads, as many were made for other markets.
An easy test for thread type is to remove the freewheel and try a bottom bracket lockring of known thread type on the hub threads. An English thread lockring will not thread onto a metric thread hub, but should easily thread onto an ISO/English thread hub.

Also for a while they had they own system called Heliomatic, or so I understand. I know nothing about it except what I've read here in BF but I understand they can be problematic. I don't know if the difference was in the threads or in how the sprockets were attached.
Helicomatic hubs used a proprietary thread pattern. The design was actually quite clever (similar to modern freehubs) but the execution was problematic. They used small bearings that proved to wear quickly and require more frequent service than most people were willing or accustomed to providing. But Adam states his bike has a Cyclo 64 freewheel, which means it is not a Helicomatic hub or freewheel:

Originally Posted by Adam Newsome View Post
Freewheel: Cyclo 64 (made in France)
JohnDThompson is offline  
Old 02-22-17, 08:27 AM
  #5  
Adam Newsome
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Hi guys

Thank you so much for your help, that's been very useful. I've also heard back from the gent selling the wheels and the hub is actually ISO threaded. I've checked my FW and sadly there are no other markings on it. I'll take it to a bike shop in the morning in the hope they can advise what thread it is before I buy the wheels. As you say, I could still buy them all the same and source a replacement FW. You know what it's like though; I'm trying to keep as many original components as possible. I looked into buying some clincher rims and having the wheels rebuilt but I can't afford that sadly. I'll keep you posted.

Thanks again

Adam
Adam Newsome is offline  
Old 02-22-17, 11:37 AM
  #6  
jimmuller 
What??? Only 2 wheels?
 
jimmuller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Boston-ish, MA
Posts: 13,401

Bikes: 73 Raleigh Carlton Gran Sport, 72 Peugeot UO-8, 82 Peugeot TH8, 87 Bianchi Brava, 76? Masi Grand Criterium, 87 Centurion Ironman Expert, 74 Motobecane Champion Team, 86 & 77 Gazelle champion mondial, 81? Grandis, 82? Tommasini, 83 Peugeot PF10

Mentioned: 186 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1212 Post(s)
Liked 489 Times in 192 Posts
Originally Posted by JohnDThompson View Post
But Adam states his bike has a Cyclo 64 freewheel, which means it is not a Helicomatic hub or freewheel:
True enough, and likely a metric, i.e. French, FW, especially with a Normandy Luxe Competition hub. But the "New hub" he was considering is Maillard. Which means there are two unknowns, with one unknown more unknown than the other.

Originally Posted by Adam Newsome View Post
.. I'm trying to keep as many original components as possible. I looked into buying some clincher rims and having the wheels rebuilt but I can't afford that sadly.
I wouldn't worry about keeping the FW original, as they become consumables in the long run. However the rims will clearly not be original once you switch to clinchers. Which is to say, that's one area of "originality" that needn't stay on your chosen development path.

What rims are they? They, or even the complete wheels, might be worth something to some of us. And what is the rear spacing? 120mm? 126mm?
__________________
Real cyclists use toe clips.
With great bikes comes great responsibility.
jimmuller
jimmuller is offline  
Old 02-22-17, 12:41 PM
  #7  
CliffordK
Senior Member
 
CliffordK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 26,884
Mentioned: 213 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15729 Post(s)
Liked 3,155 Times in 2,350 Posts
Just about all new freewheels will be ISO. So, having an ISO wheel/hub is a good thing.

If your freewheel doesn't match, there are plenty of cheap replacements (which may also shift better).
CliffordK is offline  
Old 02-22-17, 03:02 PM
  #8  
zukahn1
Senior Member
 
zukahn1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Fairplay Co
Posts: 8,647

Bikes: Current 79 Nishiki Custum Sport, Jeunet 620, notable previous bikes P.K. Ripper loop tail, Kawahara Laser Lite, Paramount Track full chrome, Raliegh Internatioanl, Motobecan Super Mirage. 59 Crown royak 3 speed

Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 586 Post(s)
Liked 658 Times in 321 Posts
Originally Posted by Adam Newsome View Post
Hi guys

Thank you so much for your help, that's been very useful. I've also heard back from the gent selling the wheels and the hub is actually ISO threaded. I've checked my FW and sadly there are no other markings on it. I'll take it to a bike shop in the morning in the hope they can advise what thread it is before I buy the wheels. As you say, I could still buy them all the same and source a replacement FW. You know what it's like though; I'm trying to keep as many original components as possible. I looked into buying some clincher rims and having the wheels rebuilt but I can't afford that sadly. I'll keep you posted.

Thanks again

Adam
Based on the description your wheelset likely has a French threaded freewheel. I would leave the old wheelset intact with freewheel and buy a ISO freewheel for the new wheelset fairly nice new or vintage 5/6 speed freewheels can be found for $15-20 pretty easy if you keep an eye on the auctions on ebay you often times get nice vintage ones for only $10 or so.
zukahn1 is offline  
Old 02-22-17, 03:23 PM
  #9  
Vintage Raleigh
Senior Member
 
Vintage Raleigh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 703

Bikes: 1974 Copper Raleigh International, 1975 Olive Green Raleigh Grand Prix, 1974 Raleigh Europa Custom

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 102 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
I'd get a second opinion or check for yourself with the BB lock ring. I've have several LBS's tell me my Record HF BSC was ISO, also a (knowledgeable seller) at a swap meet told me there's no such thing as French Italian BSC or ISO and they're all the same. I put an ISO FW on an 80s Campagnolo low end BSC but that was my decision as I wasn't precious about originality.
Vintage Raleigh is offline  
Old 02-23-17, 05:35 AM
  #10  
Adam Newsome
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by jimmuller View Post
What rims are they? They, or even the complete wheels, might be worth something to some of us. And what is the rear spacing? 120mm? 126mm?
The rims are Record and the rear spacing is 120mm.
Adam Newsome is offline  
Old 02-23-17, 05:42 AM
  #11  
Adam Newsome
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Well, I took both the FW and wheel with hub to a Giant cycle store and had a chat with the mechanic there. He himself was a little stumped too. Visually comparing it against an ISO threaded FW from the shelf, the thread spacing on my FW looks marginally wider so we assumed it is French. He explained that Cyclo as a company have changed several times over the years and are currently manufacturing tools so searching on their website didn't help sadly. I think I'll return the FW to the hub and sell them on complete, then purchase an ISO freewheel when the replacement wheels arrive.
Thanks again everyone, you've been a great help.

Adam
Adam Newsome is offline  
Old 02-23-17, 05:48 AM
  #12  
pastorbobnlnh 
Freewheel Medic
 
pastorbobnlnh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: NH Mountains NW of Concord & Mid-GA Coast!
Posts: 12,008

Bikes: Snazzy* Schwinns, Classy Cannondales, & a Lonely '83 Santana Tandem (* Ed.)

Mentioned: 108 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 884 Post(s)
Liked 660 Times in 368 Posts
I have a few Cyclo freewheels in my spares. Would you like for me to check to see if they are British/ISO threading? What is the range of the tooth count on your current Cyclo?

BTW, I find it amazing that your LBS mechanic even knew about Cyclo freewheels. That's a great find! Stay friendly with him!
__________________
Bob
Dreaming about riding in NH's summertime while enjoying the GA coast for the remainder of the year!

Thanks for visiting my website: www.freewheelspa.com




pastorbobnlnh is offline  
Old 02-23-17, 05:53 AM
  #13  
Adam Newsome
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh View Post
I have a few Cyclo freewheels in my spares. Would you like for me to check to see if they are British/ISO threading? What is the range of the tooth count on your current Cyclo?

BTW, I find it amazing that your LBS mechanic even knew about Cyclo freewheels. That's a great find! Stay friendly with him!
That would be fantastic, thank you. I've counted the range and it is 16-20.
Adam Newsome is offline  
Old 02-23-17, 07:07 AM
  #14  
pastorbobnlnh 
Freewheel Medic
 
pastorbobnlnh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: NH Mountains NW of Concord & Mid-GA Coast!
Posts: 12,008

Bikes: Snazzy* Schwinns, Classy Cannondales, & a Lonely '83 Santana Tandem (* Ed.)

Mentioned: 108 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 884 Post(s)
Liked 660 Times in 368 Posts
Originally Posted by Adam Newsome View Post
That would be fantastic, thank you. I've counted the range and it is 16-20.
WOW! That's some tight racing range for back in the day! A 16-17-18-19-20 five speed corn cob!

Below is the "CYCLO 64" I restored a few years back. Obviously a wider range.



I do have some other Cyclo freewheels around. I'll dig them out this weekend, take some pictures, and see if any are British/ISO or French threaded.
__________________
Bob
Dreaming about riding in NH's summertime while enjoying the GA coast for the remainder of the year!

Thanks for visiting my website: www.freewheelspa.com




pastorbobnlnh is offline  
Old 02-23-17, 07:10 AM
  #15  
Adam Newsome
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh View Post
I do have some other Cyclo freewheels around. I'll dig them out this weekend, take some pictures, and see if any are British/ISO or French threaded.
pastorbobnlnh, that's very kind. Thank you.
Adam Newsome is offline  
Old 02-23-17, 06:59 PM
  #16  
juvela
Senior Member
 
juvela's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Alta California
Posts: 11,872
Mentioned: 329 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2875 Post(s)
Liked 1,443 Times in 1,054 Posts
-----

Hello Adam,

Good to read you have it all well sorted.

These Atom/Normandy/Maillard hubs are marked by the manufacturer with their thread specification.

If they have a groove in the area just outboard of right flange and just inboard of the threads they are BSC/ISO dimension. If this area is smooth/ungrooved they are metric/french threaded. This manufacturer does not offer italian thread.

All Schwinn Approved versions of these products are of course BSC/ISO.

Image of Normandy Sport metric/french threaded:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/stronglight/6054430354

Normandy Luxe Competition BSC/ISO dimension -

https://farm3.static.flickr.com/2318/...9c72fe.jpg?v=0

https://farm3.static.flickr.com/2372/...324341.jpg?v=0

-----

Last edited by juvela; 02-23-17 at 07:00 PM. Reason: spellin'
juvela is offline  
Old 02-24-17, 05:54 AM
  #17  
Adam Newsome
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by juvela View Post
If they have a groove in the area just outboard of right flange and just inboard of the threads they are BSC/ISO dimension. If this area is smooth/ungrooved they are metric/french threaded. This manufacturer does not offer italian thread.
Thanks! That's a great tip to tell if it is French or ISO. I've had a look at the hub on the wheel I removed and there isn't much of a space at all between the thread and flange, certainly not enough for another groove. It's much like the French example you have given and smooth.

Great advice, thank you.
Adam Newsome is offline  
Old 02-24-17, 10:56 AM
  #18  
JohnDThompson 
Old fart
 
JohnDThompson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Appleton WI
Posts: 23,483

Bikes: Several, mostly not name brands.

Mentioned: 136 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2937 Post(s)
Liked 1,949 Times in 1,166 Posts
Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh View Post
Below is the "CYCLO 64" I restored a few years back. Obviously a wider range.

Looks like a standard two-prong Regina remover would fit that freewheel. Do you know if that's the case?
JohnDThompson is offline  
Old 02-24-17, 11:31 AM
  #19  
squirtdad
Senior Member
 
squirtdad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: San Jose (Willow Glen) Ca
Posts: 8,418

Bikes: 85 team Miyata (modern 5800 105) , '84 Team Miyata,(dura ace old school) 80?? SR Semi-Pro 600 Arabesque

Mentioned: 87 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1708 Post(s)
Liked 1,274 Times in 796 Posts
little off topic.... you might consider going tubular as an option. I have had good luck (in terms of durabilty) with using Tufo tires, tape and sealant. The durable ones I use are reported to be not the most supple, but I saw a bit difference over clinchers.
squirtdad is offline  
Old 02-25-17, 12:17 PM
  #20  
pastorbobnlnh 
Freewheel Medic
 
pastorbobnlnh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: NH Mountains NW of Concord & Mid-GA Coast!
Posts: 12,008

Bikes: Snazzy* Schwinns, Classy Cannondales, & a Lonely '83 Santana Tandem (* Ed.)

Mentioned: 108 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 884 Post(s)
Liked 660 Times in 368 Posts
Originally Posted by JohnDThompson View Post
Looks like a standard two-prong Regina remover would fit that freewheel. Do you know if that's the case?
John, I checked and a Regina 2 prong remover is really sloppy. I also have a Cyclo 2-prong and the fit is very good.

Originally Posted by Adam Newsome View Post
pastorbobnlnh, that's very kind. Thank you.
Adam, so sorry this took a few days to post. I've been busy working on several freewheels for clients. I finally dug these out from where they have been waiting for restoration service. Both appear to be either ISO, British, or Italian threading.

__________________
Bob
Dreaming about riding in NH's summertime while enjoying the GA coast for the remainder of the year!

Thanks for visiting my website: www.freewheelspa.com




pastorbobnlnh is offline  
Old 02-25-17, 02:05 PM
  #21  
JohnDThompson 
Old fart
 
JohnDThompson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Appleton WI
Posts: 23,483

Bikes: Several, mostly not name brands.

Mentioned: 136 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2937 Post(s)
Liked 1,949 Times in 1,166 Posts
Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh View Post
I checked and a Regina 2 prong remover is really sloppy. I also have a Cyclo 2-prong and the fit is very good.
Thanks for checking. I have a Cyclo tool and a Regina tool, but no Cyclo freewheel for test fitting. They seemed similar enough that it might work.

JohnDThompson is offline  
Old 03-05-17, 04:17 AM
  #22  
pastorbobnlnh 
Freewheel Medic
 
pastorbobnlnh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: NH Mountains NW of Concord & Mid-GA Coast!
Posts: 12,008

Bikes: Snazzy* Schwinns, Classy Cannondales, & a Lonely '83 Santana Tandem (* Ed.)

Mentioned: 108 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 884 Post(s)
Liked 660 Times in 368 Posts
Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh View Post
...I finally dug these out from where they have been waiting for restoration service. Both appear to be either ISO, British, or Italian threading.

Before and after pictures, just for the record.



These Cyclos with their reversed internals are really amazing. Because of the way the pawls are held in place on the outer body and the depth of the ratchet teeth on the inner body, each pawl makes a "CLICK-click" at each tooth when freewheeling. The second "click" is subtle, but it is there.
__________________
Bob
Dreaming about riding in NH's summertime while enjoying the GA coast for the remainder of the year!

Thanks for visiting my website: www.freewheelspa.com




pastorbobnlnh is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Gary3
Bicycle Mechanics
18
02-09-18 06:12 PM
smontanaro
Classic & Vintage
14
05-07-16 08:23 AM
owenmyers
Classic & Vintage
7
05-23-13 08:13 PM
rideone
Classic & Vintage
13
11-13-11 04:50 PM
lagrassa
Classic & Vintage
1
09-15-10 11:53 AM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.