Should I get this BB shell faced?
10-22-17 | 05:45 PM
#26
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Is the configuration you have in your last picture with bearings in place? Try the proper fixed cup instead, just for giggles, and see what the result is if you haven’t already done so. It might be the spindle dimensions are not correct for that bottom bracket also. I had to search out a correct spindle for my Tommasini since the 70 SS would not fit correctly, and that bb needed facing badly. The LBS owner/mechanic has the complete Campagnolo tool selection and he did the deed in a morning, along with chasing the threads on both sides properly.
Don’t take it that careful QC inspections were done, its a different world now. (From real world quality control engineering experiences.)
Don’t take it that careful QC inspections were done, its a different world now. (From real world quality control engineering experiences.)
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N = '96 Colnago C40, '04 Wilier Alpe D'Huez, '10 Colnago EPS, '85 Merckx Pro, '89 Merckx Century, '86 Tommasini Professional, '04 Teschner Aero FX Pro, '05 Alan Carbon Cross, '86 De Rosa Professional, '95 Gios Compact Pro, '95 Carrera Zeus, ‘81 Masi Gran Criterium, ‘81 Merckx Pro, ‘89 Cinelli Supercorsa, ‘83 Bianchi Specialissima, ‘VO Randonneur, Ritchey Breakaway Steel, Rivendell Rambouillet, Heron Randonneur, ‘92 Ciöcc Columbus EL
N = '96 Colnago C40, '04 Wilier Alpe D'Huez, '10 Colnago EPS, '85 Merckx Pro, '89 Merckx Century, '86 Tommasini Professional, '04 Teschner Aero FX Pro, '05 Alan Carbon Cross, '86 De Rosa Professional, '95 Gios Compact Pro, '95 Carrera Zeus, ‘81 Masi Gran Criterium, ‘81 Merckx Pro, ‘89 Cinelli Supercorsa, ‘83 Bianchi Specialissima, ‘VO Randonneur, Ritchey Breakaway Steel, Rivendell Rambouillet, Heron Randonneur, ‘92 Ciöcc Columbus EL
10-22-17 | 06:01 PM
#27
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From: Tampa, Florida
A BB shell would have to be super crazy out of whack to bind up a BB. Especially a traditional cup/spindle BB.
Run that fixed cup in by itself. Does go in ok by hand? If not how much effort does it take? Just as the cup flange meets the BB face check for gaps with bright light. You could also mark up the shell face and cup flange with a Sharpie or dry erase marker then lightly seat the cup then remove and check for a wear pattern.
With a Campy cartridge BB its easy to check for BB face alignment. Screw in the Cartridge first, maybe half way in, the screw in the cup. If the cup goes in with minimal effort the BB shell itself is in fairly good alignment. Now fully seat the cartridge. If the face is out of wack the cup will have a hard time tightening down.
Run that fixed cup in by itself. Does go in ok by hand? If not how much effort does it take? Just as the cup flange meets the BB face check for gaps with bright light. You could also mark up the shell face and cup flange with a Sharpie or dry erase marker then lightly seat the cup then remove and check for a wear pattern.
With a Campy cartridge BB its easy to check for BB face alignment. Screw in the Cartridge first, maybe half way in, the screw in the cup. If the cup goes in with minimal effort the BB shell itself is in fairly good alignment. Now fully seat the cartridge. If the face is out of wack the cup will have a hard time tightening down.
10-22-17 | 06:13 PM
#28
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Bikes: 78 Masi Criterium, 68 PX10, 2016 Mercian King of Mercia, Rivendell Clem Smith Jr
Top pic is with the fixed cup. Experiment was done with the caged bearings in place. Pretty sure it's the right spindle with the cups. I'm no frame guru - always assumed thread chasing was strictly to clean up the threads, but I wonder if a proper thread chasing, along with facing will address any subtle misalignment between left side and right side threading.
10-23-17 | 12:14 AM
#29
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Bikes: Merz x 5 + Specialized Merz Allez x 2, Strawberry/Newlands/DiNucci/Ti x3, Gordon, Fuso/Moulton x2, Bornstein, Paisley,1958-74 Paramounts x3, 3rensho, 74 Moto TC, 73-78 Raleigh Pro's x5, Marinoni x2, 1960 Cinelli SC, 1980 Bianchi SC, PX-10 X 2
From looking at those cups, I would try a 68mm axle just to see at this point.
I agree with miamijim that it doesn't make sense that it binds, especially with cup and cone. Can you get the bearings set up right if you ignore the cups sticking out too far?
After that, I would find the best framebuilder close to you for help with this.
And not to rain on the parade, but you may be just now finding out why this frame was never built up.
I agree with miamijim that it doesn't make sense that it binds, especially with cup and cone. Can you get the bearings set up right if you ignore the cups sticking out too far?
After that, I would find the best framebuilder close to you for help with this.
And not to rain on the parade, but you may be just now finding out why this frame was never built up.
That thickness on the SSE side is a bit of an optical illusion. It's the cable guide on the Cinelli lug, actually set back a bit from the lip of the shell. I'm fairly confident there isn't a major structural issue as the frame has a serial number (wouldn't get one right if it didn't pass QC?) and no signs of any damage or craziness done to it.
Last edited by merziac; 10-23-17 at 12:28 AM.
10-23-17 | 10:23 AM
#31
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From: Tampa, Florida
OK so.....
Lets go back to the cup/cone/spindle BB and try a few things. Starting with the fixed cup...
1. Measure the depth of the threads on the cup and compare to the depth of the threads in the frame. To me it doesn't look like the frames threads are cut overly deep. Is there a chance the cups bottoming out?
2. If the thread depth measures out OK. Thread the fixed cup in by hand. There appears to be a lot of crud in the threads. Clean frame threads with a tooth brush and retry threading in the cup. A tick of effort to thread the cup is OK but just a tick.
3. Move on to the adjustable side and repeat.
4. After fully seating the fixed cup the adjusting cup should only sit out distance equal to the width of the lock ring... OK, maybe 1 extra thread is ok. Anything more than that means either the spindle is too long, the cups are too thick or both.
Lets go back to the cup/cone/spindle BB and try a few things. Starting with the fixed cup...
1. Measure the depth of the threads on the cup and compare to the depth of the threads in the frame. To me it doesn't look like the frames threads are cut overly deep. Is there a chance the cups bottoming out?
2. If the thread depth measures out OK. Thread the fixed cup in by hand. There appears to be a lot of crud in the threads. Clean frame threads with a tooth brush and retry threading in the cup. A tick of effort to thread the cup is OK but just a tick.
3. Move on to the adjustable side and repeat.
4. After fully seating the fixed cup the adjusting cup should only sit out distance equal to the width of the lock ring... OK, maybe 1 extra thread is ok. Anything more than that means either the spindle is too long, the cups are too thick or both.
10-27-17 | 11:22 AM
#32
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So the answer is yes.
Just got back from a quick trip to the not-local bike shop. Bottom bracket now installs like Tullio intended!
I think it was actually the thread chasing that fixed the problem.
I think it was actually the thread chasing that fixed the problem.
__________________
N = '96 Colnago C40, '04 Wilier Alpe D'Huez, '10 Colnago EPS, '85 Merckx Pro, '89 Merckx Century, '86 Tommasini Professional, '04 Teschner Aero FX Pro, '05 Alan Carbon Cross, '86 De Rosa Professional, '95 Gios Compact Pro, '95 Carrera Zeus, ‘81 Masi Gran Criterium, ‘81 Merckx Pro, ‘89 Cinelli Supercorsa, ‘83 Bianchi Specialissima, ‘VO Randonneur, Ritchey Breakaway Steel, Rivendell Rambouillet, Heron Randonneur, ‘92 Ciöcc Columbus EL
N = '96 Colnago C40, '04 Wilier Alpe D'Huez, '10 Colnago EPS, '85 Merckx Pro, '89 Merckx Century, '86 Tommasini Professional, '04 Teschner Aero FX Pro, '05 Alan Carbon Cross, '86 De Rosa Professional, '95 Gios Compact Pro, '95 Carrera Zeus, ‘81 Masi Gran Criterium, ‘81 Merckx Pro, ‘89 Cinelli Supercorsa, ‘83 Bianchi Specialissima, ‘VO Randonneur, Ritchey Breakaway Steel, Rivendell Rambouillet, Heron Randonneur, ‘92 Ciöcc Columbus EL
10-27-17 | 01:02 PM
#35
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Bikes: Merz x 5 + Specialized Merz Allez x 2, Strawberry/Newlands/DiNucci/Ti x3, Gordon, Fuso/Moulton x2, Bornstein, Paisley,1958-74 Paramounts x3, 3rensho, 74 Moto TC, 73-78 Raleigh Pro's x5, Marinoni x2, 1960 Cinelli SC, 1980 Bianchi SC, PX-10 X 2
My homebrew fixes them every time without a trip to the shop, don't claim to be an expert but my success record is 100%. A full understanding of these problems when they arise can facilitate a much quicker resolution the next time and therefore be invaluable. 
And yes, good to here the problem is solved.
And yes, good to here the problem is solved.
Last edited by merziac; 10-27-17 at 01:07 PM.
10-29-17 | 07:39 AM
#36
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Those of us who invested in a flat table, fork jig and Campag tool kit for our shop and developed a QC/finishing SOP for each and every frameset that was built for customers "back when" did so out of necessity.
-Bandera
10-29-17 | 10:49 AM
#38
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My homebrew fixes them every time without a trip to the shop, don't claim to be an expert but my success record is 100%. A full understanding of these problems when they arise can facilitate a much quicker resolution the next time and therefore be invaluable.
And yes, good to here the problem is solved.
And yes, good to here the problem is solved.
10-29-17 | 11:05 AM
#39
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In progress. I've agonized over saddle choice. Tentatively settles on the Turbo Special. The brown suede Volare is the sentimental choice, but it is a little worn and heavier, plus I don't think it looks quite right with this build.
Boy I need to tidy up my work space!
Boy I need to tidy up my work space!
__________________
N = '96 Colnago C40, '04 Wilier Alpe D'Huez, '10 Colnago EPS, '85 Merckx Pro, '89 Merckx Century, '86 Tommasini Professional, '04 Teschner Aero FX Pro, '05 Alan Carbon Cross, '86 De Rosa Professional, '95 Gios Compact Pro, '95 Carrera Zeus, ‘81 Masi Gran Criterium, ‘81 Merckx Pro, ‘89 Cinelli Supercorsa, ‘83 Bianchi Specialissima, ‘VO Randonneur, Ritchey Breakaway Steel, Rivendell Rambouillet, Heron Randonneur, ‘92 Ciöcc Columbus EL
N = '96 Colnago C40, '04 Wilier Alpe D'Huez, '10 Colnago EPS, '85 Merckx Pro, '89 Merckx Century, '86 Tommasini Professional, '04 Teschner Aero FX Pro, '05 Alan Carbon Cross, '86 De Rosa Professional, '95 Gios Compact Pro, '95 Carrera Zeus, ‘81 Masi Gran Criterium, ‘81 Merckx Pro, ‘89 Cinelli Supercorsa, ‘83 Bianchi Specialissima, ‘VO Randonneur, Ritchey Breakaway Steel, Rivendell Rambouillet, Heron Randonneur, ‘92 Ciöcc Columbus EL
10-29-17 | 12:17 PM
#40
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Bikes: Merz x 5 + Specialized Merz Allez x 2, Strawberry/Newlands/DiNucci/Ti x3, Gordon, Fuso/Moulton x2, Bornstein, Paisley,1958-74 Paramounts x3, 3rensho, 74 Moto TC, 73-78 Raleigh Pro's x5, Marinoni x2, 1960 Cinelli SC, 1980 Bianchi SC, PX-10 X 2
10-29-17 | 02:48 PM
#41
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OP: glad you got this figured out.
And yeah, some cleaning of your workspace is indeed in order! First time I've seen a kitchen used as a workshop
DD
And yeah, some cleaning of your workspace is indeed in order! First time I've seen a kitchen used as a workshop
DD
10-29-17 | 03:52 PM
#42
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Glad you solved it, but I still can't figure out how a not properly chased and faced BB shell will cause a cartridge BB to bind.
10-29-17 | 04:20 PM
#43
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DD - about every other year I use the oven for extra baking capacity at Thanksgiving, otherwise it’s the bike shop and beer storage area. About every 2weeks I think about taking all that stuff out, knocking out that wall to make a nice shop with the next door laundry room.
__________________
N = '96 Colnago C40, '04 Wilier Alpe D'Huez, '10 Colnago EPS, '85 Merckx Pro, '89 Merckx Century, '86 Tommasini Professional, '04 Teschner Aero FX Pro, '05 Alan Carbon Cross, '86 De Rosa Professional, '95 Gios Compact Pro, '95 Carrera Zeus, ‘81 Masi Gran Criterium, ‘81 Merckx Pro, ‘89 Cinelli Supercorsa, ‘83 Bianchi Specialissima, ‘VO Randonneur, Ritchey Breakaway Steel, Rivendell Rambouillet, Heron Randonneur, ‘92 Ciöcc Columbus EL
N = '96 Colnago C40, '04 Wilier Alpe D'Huez, '10 Colnago EPS, '85 Merckx Pro, '89 Merckx Century, '86 Tommasini Professional, '04 Teschner Aero FX Pro, '05 Alan Carbon Cross, '86 De Rosa Professional, '95 Gios Compact Pro, '95 Carrera Zeus, ‘81 Masi Gran Criterium, ‘81 Merckx Pro, ‘89 Cinelli Supercorsa, ‘83 Bianchi Specialissima, ‘VO Randonneur, Ritchey Breakaway Steel, Rivendell Rambouillet, Heron Randonneur, ‘92 Ciöcc Columbus EL
10-29-17 | 05:05 PM
#44
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In progress. I've agonized over saddle choice. Tentatively settles on the Turbo Special. The brown suede Volare is thttps://www.bikeforums.net/19959290-post95.htmlhe sentimental choice, but it is a little worn and heavier, plus I don't think it looks quite right with this build.
Boy I need to tidy up my work space!
Boy I need to tidy up my work space!
Bill
10-31-17 | 05:51 AM
#45
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Bikes: 1980 Masi, 1984 Mondonico, 1984 Trek 610, 1980 Woodrup Giro, 2005 Mondonico Futura Leggera ELOS, 1967 PX10E, 1971 Peugeot UO-8
10-31-17 | 06:34 AM
#46
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Nearest set of Italian BB tools is over an hour from me. As it turns out, the shop was able to do the job while I waited, only a couple of days after I called, unlike last time when I had to drop off. The bike is done and first ride was yesterday.
__________________
N = '96 Colnago C40, '04 Wilier Alpe D'Huez, '10 Colnago EPS, '85 Merckx Pro, '89 Merckx Century, '86 Tommasini Professional, '04 Teschner Aero FX Pro, '05 Alan Carbon Cross, '86 De Rosa Professional, '95 Gios Compact Pro, '95 Carrera Zeus, ‘81 Masi Gran Criterium, ‘81 Merckx Pro, ‘89 Cinelli Supercorsa, ‘83 Bianchi Specialissima, ‘VO Randonneur, Ritchey Breakaway Steel, Rivendell Rambouillet, Heron Randonneur, ‘92 Ciöcc Columbus EL
N = '96 Colnago C40, '04 Wilier Alpe D'Huez, '10 Colnago EPS, '85 Merckx Pro, '89 Merckx Century, '86 Tommasini Professional, '04 Teschner Aero FX Pro, '05 Alan Carbon Cross, '86 De Rosa Professional, '95 Gios Compact Pro, '95 Carrera Zeus, ‘81 Masi Gran Criterium, ‘81 Merckx Pro, ‘89 Cinelli Supercorsa, ‘83 Bianchi Specialissima, ‘VO Randonneur, Ritchey Breakaway Steel, Rivendell Rambouillet, Heron Randonneur, ‘92 Ciöcc Columbus EL
10-31-17 | 04:39 PM
#47
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[MENTION=396646]Spaghetti Legs[/MENTION] next time that you encounter a problem that needs a special tool it could be that someone here will work out a method for mailing the tool to you to accomplish the job. Once you are finished just mail the tool(s) back to the owner.
I have loaned tools for this situation, and its been posted in this forum by others, in the past. As long as you feel comfortable doing the task needing the tool(s) the members here most likely will be glad to work with you.
As much as I want a complete Campagnolo wood cased tool set, they are steadily increasing in price and they aren’t being made now either. Saw one on ebay this weekend with a BIN of $6500, I will be visiting the LBS where the owner has two of them and knows how to do the various tasks.
Bill
I have loaned tools for this situation, and its been posted in this forum by others, in the past. As long as you feel comfortable doing the task needing the tool(s) the members here most likely will be glad to work with you.
As much as I want a complete Campagnolo wood cased tool set, they are steadily increasing in price and they aren’t being made now either. Saw one on ebay this weekend with a BIN of $6500, I will be visiting the LBS where the owner has two of them and knows how to do the various tasks.
Bill
