Wileyone 

Thanks. Actually it's Powder Coat. The only reason I went PC was that it's Fillet brazed with no lug work for the PC to hide.

non-fixie 

Excellent post. In order to find the real gems, you need to know the local culture and understand that the bicycle industry - certainly the high end part of it - is/was probably the least transparent business in the world. Many races were (and maybe still are) won on machines built by relatively unknown artisans with a small but dedicated group of clients, who were not about to divulge their trade secrets.

The more you find out, the more you realize that you're not looking at what you think you're looking at ...

nlerner

What gets complicated is that a wide range of builders would work for different brands over the years. Condor is often known for Bill Hurlow, who created those fancy lugs, but according to this site, he also built for Holdsworth, Claud Butler, F H Grubb, Mal Rees, and under his own name. A friend has a Hurlow with fancy chrome lugs:

Big Block

Peter Underwood's Classic Lightweights UK site has been mentioned. Peter is very clear in his criteria:
It is unlikely that the names continued beyond the individual who ran the business. Look at the names on the Classic Frame Builders page.
Some just ceased production, some continued on under the new owners name.
I have an EA Boult built at the time that Ernie Boult was selling the business to one of his employees. The employee then transitioned the business to his name (Witcomb Lightweight Cycles) once he had established his own reputation.

Bandera

When I first met a Welsh ex-pat years ago competitive cycling came up in conversation:

Jones: "So, what then is yer time in the 50?"
Bandera: "50 what?"

Two great nations separated by the same language and totally different cycling cultures.

-Bandera

bikingshearer 

My first purchase with my first paycheck from my first job out of high school was a Bob Jackson frame. That was 1975. I built it up with a hodge-podge of components I could scrounge or afford. I liked it a lot. It was stolen out of my garage c.1993.

A friend had a gorgeous blue Ron Cooper back when I bought the Jackson. I truly listed after it. Finally, about ten years ago, I was able to snag one on eBay. I now have my own gorgeous blue Ron Cooper. It rides at least as good as it looks, and that's saying something.

The Jackson will always have a special place in my heart (and I will always wish whoever stole it ill), but the Cooper is better. It is truly something special.

BobG

I have a 1968 Hurlow frame with that exact same lug set. Previously posted on another thread but deleted by photobucket. Originally it was blue with red lettering and pin striping around the lugs...

KonAaron Snake 

Agree in full...someone had to pump em' out. All bikes are tools and compromises in a particular way...and a 531 that was readily available, without a wait, is a worthwhile thing to have.

Wileyone 

I am surprised no one has mentioned Rotrax. I always thought they built some beautiful Machines. They just seemed to be overshadowed by Hetchins.

crank_addict

Vic Edwards (w/ serial having letters 'VE' ... for 'very early' hehe)




cheer's

qcpmsame 

Definitely use Peter Underwood's site Classic Lightweights, his research is impeccable. I'm surprised that Hobbs hasn't been mentioned, or if I have overlooked it, apologies. The years prior to WWII, and then afterwards seemed to just form frame builders out of the soil. Between the effects of the Great Depression and then the war, men were searching for a trade/job, and cycles were a fact of life in the UK. Even several of the American builders went over to the UK for apprenticeships, and turned out some beautiful products.

Bill

Bikerider007

Love those little tangs! Nice frame!

I'm not really seeing a trend on English stuff other than most would not mind having a Hetchins. There do seem to be some more common names.....but it's not like the passion of this or that which seems to go hand in hand with Italian. Even for some of the lessor known brands and there are many.

That was my thoughts as I started this and it seems to hold true. How about U.S builders? Ha!

Bandera

Good solid sensible Brits didn't go in for displays of sentiment, certainly not of unseemly passion for a bicycle.
A restrained appreciation for good design, quality workmanship, durability and most certainly for real value were part of the culture that included bicycles as well as other manufactured goods "back when" in the UK.

I doubt that any of the Carlton workmen who had a hand in the production of my '74 International would be surprised that it has been in continuous service for >43 years. Designed and built for a lifetime of versatile service by a club rider it's typically British of the era.

-Bandera

KonAaron Snake 

Judging from my old Raleigh international, I doubt they were sober when they made it and I doubt they gave a crap at all about how long it lasted in service.

Really going to disagree with this post...the Brits are more frilly than the Italians in design - and covered a whole lot of slop in stove top enamel. And there's nothing sensible about putting steel rims on a bike with mud guards and what passed as brakes. Obviously any generalizations about a country's bikes fail when discussing specific builders, but, post club bikes, the Brits just made imitation cinellis equipped with Italian parts.

There's just as much romanticism with Brits as there is Italians on this site.

nlerner

Wow, troll much?

KonAaron Snake 

Apologies if it came out that way...but the generalizations about Italian bikes get on my nerves. There are many fine British builders.

nlerner

Oh, and I thought you were trying to stoke the @Bandera fire!

Bikerider007

I'm not seeing it, sounds like he just put his thoughts down. Maybe a little uncensored.


I understand Banderas thoughts as well and it sounded like he was just describing the brits in general, and we all see many things form our point of view. I recall his posts of racing, coaching and training. The bike seems much more of a means to an end vs the way I have seen others here name it or see it like a friend. I also know he values his original bikes from back in the day as many others here do.


If there is any doubt people have passion about their Italian bikes just look at every Derosa or Cinelli thread, someone loves or hates them and they usually go sideways. Ask a Galmozzi owner which is the best Italian.......on and on. There are different levels and types of passion just like there is purpose. Even when era's separate some builders, quality and/or popularity still play a part.


I was hoping to hear others say what and why something English is coveted and maybe some cool backstory.

KonAaron Snake 

What I lack in subtlety I make up for with scrutable motives.

FWIW, I thnk there are two very different animals being lumped together here...English bikes and English export bikes. Tis' one of the dangers endemic to overarching generalizations.

KonAaron Snake 

There is a lot of passion for some Brits; look at the pricing on some of the older club bikes. SBDU certainly has enthusiastic fans...Hetchins...

I think if you really look at it the bikes that tend to get the juices flowing often have a few common features:

Difficult to attain, but not impossible.
Innovative design feature.
Pretty colors/graphics.
Ridden successfully in multiple races by iconic teams/riders.

As far as road bikes, there are probably more Italians that fit that bill. The most iconic Brit bikes, the club ones, weren't primarily export products and they don't fit the mold. They are less known here and less available.

IMO the main reason for some of the hostility on those threads is class war kind of stuff and resentment that their favored brand gets less attention.

palincss

What does "post club bikes" mean?

Jack Taylors are in no way "imitation cinellis with Italian parts."

USAZorro

I see nobody has mentioned Viscount/Lambert. This is as it should be. lol

I have one Bob Jackson, two Vikings, a Robin Hood, a Dunelt, and a bunch of Raleighs.

The ones with the best build quality are the 2000 Bob Jackson, 1977 Team Professional and 1970 Professional. The two Vikings and the 1949 Clubman have a very good build quality as well, though not quite as refined as the first three. The rest are all over the map, but are none-the-less enjoyable riders.

So many of the British builders had "lines" with various types of bicycles at a range of price points, so it is really difficult to come up with a "top ##" list without being very much more explicit about what you're including.

Bandera

"Year Record" Machines 1939

Tommy Godwin | The Machine


5 reasons why she was Beryl Burton and you couldn’t have held her wheel

https://www.bikemag.com/pavedmag/5-re...eld-her-wheel/

Steve Whitlatch 

Witcomb may not have been fancy but they sure did make a great frame. They also trained 4 great American Builders that went on to great fame. Went for a 50 mile ride with crank_addict today, he on his 72 Witcomb and me on my modernized 1969 Witcomb. Enjoyed every minute of the ride.

(crank_addict holding the bikes)
IMG_0982.jpg

rhm

In the pre- and post-war period English bikes had a certain character, all English made components, and for some reason we seem to regard the Raleigh Clubman as the paradigm of the type. That was the heyday of the English cycling industry, and I think Aaron is using that term to refer to all the English bicycles of that era.

By the late sixties, that was over. For whatever reason, by that time the English bicycle industry was reduced to Reynolds tubing, Brooks saddles, and frame building.

Some of the frames retained more English character than others. The first generation of the Raleigh Professional, however, really was a Cinelli copy, complete with Campagnolo parts, but it had English threading.